Flight Design 4 seater

[Carbon Canary]

Freidrichshafen saw the announcement by Flight Design to build a true 4 seater.  The likes of the C172 and the PA28 are getting attacked at both ends of the market now by composite aircraft.  Will Cessna and PIper eventually respond with something new in this space ? They've had half a century to think about it or is it still a case of if it ain't broke don't fiddle with it - they are still selling well.

 

FLIGHT DESIGN F4: THE 4-SEATER TO CHANGE THE GA GAME - FLIGHT DESIGN

[FlyBoy1960]

They had this on display probably 10 years ago, at the time there was no suitable engine that didn't weigh 200 kgs

[skippydiesel]

All metal aircraft (GA/Sport level) are an anachronism - the future is, without doubt, composites. Composite aircraft will still utilise metal & wood, where its characteristics/cost is appropriate. 

[facthunter]

People CAN  repair the other types. I'll stick with tube steel truss frame thanks.. Nev

[Carbon Canary]

Textron and Piper will probably milk their metal designs for a few more year yet, but will ultimately have their Kodak moment.  At least Textron has Pipestrel as a composite platform to play with.

[skippydiesel]

Its quite possible (slim I agree) that legislator to increase engine efficiency/reduce pollution , similar to the ground based engine world, will force aircraft manufacturers towards more efficient airframes ie making a litre of fuel convey the airframe further. All metal wont do this as effectively as composites.

 

I suggest that; Concerns' about repairs, to composites, will slowly evaporate -

• As they become the norm
• Systems are developed for both professional and amateur /home repair.
• The amateur builder days are waning - the young of today don't even want to look after their ground based vehicles themselves, let alone build an aircraft. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by skippydiesel

[Carbon Canary]

Friedrichshafen is generally where you get a sniff of what the future of aviation looks like.  A tremendous amount of effort is going into various new propulsion means. Of course, many of the prototypes on display at Aero 2023 will remain just that.  Lots of electric motors, hydrogen fuel, mini turbines, SAF. A couple of flying car/gyrocopter/ rotor hybrid concepts and autonomous flight.

 

The Rotax 916is is a commercial outcome of exactly what you describe - more performance/ efficiency from essentially the same engine.  Car engine capacities have shrunk substantially just in the last decade while still delivering more performance and fuel economy, so it is do-able. Carbon fibre propellers are another obvious innovation that is delivering weight savings and performance gains.

 

Looking back at videos from Aero 2013, electric propulsion was just beginning to appear in prototypes. Just 10 years later we have electric aircraft in flying schools in Australia ! Yes, there is still a lot of work to do in that space, but without innovation we would still be driving horse and carts. 

[skippydiesel]

If electric aircraft are to become a viable transport vehicle (????), it will be with the aid of light weight extremely efficient aerodynamic airframes.

 

The excess of the past ie just stick a bigger, more fuel  hungry donk, on the front to get the desired performance, is sooo outdated.

 

In the small (recreational aviation) aircraft world the Europeans seem to be responding well to the challenge, much less so Uncle Sam (with a few exceptions to be sure).

 

Since the deprivations of post WW2, the Europeans seem to have instinctively worked towards greater fuel econamy, which for aircraft mist mean more efficient engines and airframe combinations.

[facthunter]

People want many different things from their generally unjustifiable indulgence  of the flying kind and efficiently covering the ground may be yours but different goals apply to others. We should be more orientated to self build and maintaining them in my view. Thats our original basis or reason to be. It doesn't necessarily follow that expensive Off the hook Plane s are a better proposition for everyone or an inevitable progression. There's a special thing about building something your self and then flying it.... "I DID IT" which is different from" Look what I just bought." ... Nev

[pmccarthy]

I have never enjoyed building things. I get my jollies out of taking old things apart, fixing the faults, and putting them back together. Have restored a few cars and bikes. I just cannot imagine building a plane, it would cause me a lot of grief. Happy to own one, have now owned two new and two used aircraft, and new is best!

[facthunter]

My point is we are all different in  what we want from aviation.   Labour content with Planes is very high  in the build and servicing and It's not in your life for a practical reason in most cases. It's more of an addiction and for most managing and justifying the COSTS will be Front and centre. Bang for your buck is everything, and like boats can chew up your money at an astonishing rate. Nev

Edited May 1, 2023 by facthunter
expand

[rgmwa]

I really enjoyed building and ended up with a new plane. Best of both worlds. 

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

My point is we are all different in  what we want from aviation.  .......................... Bang for your buck is everything, ........................Nev

Could not agree more Nev .

 

Probably due to my age (post war baby) and Euro upbringing, I have always lent towards that gold standard -  econamy WITH performance.  Seems to me that any like minded aviator will lean towards the so called "fast glass"/composites (I include wood in this category) that have the potential to deliver extraordinary "slipperiness" with low weight giving outstanding speed, for a given engine power  = economy.  Careful selection of wing aerofoil, combined with Fowler flaps (or similar) may also deliver low stall speed, which enhances safety as well as expanding the range of suitable landing sites.

 

We no longer have to choose an aircraft  that will only operate within a narrow performance range.

 

Sure if you want something that will facilitate fence/water trough inspection/land on a mountain top, you will still go for the high wing, low & slow (reborn piper cub?) with big fat /draggy wheels and if rich enough have a second aircraft, that cruise's economically in the mid 100 knot range BUT for those who want the "biggest bang for your buck" you might just invest(?) in an aircraft that stalls at 27 knots, to get you in/out of those short private strips  and will take get you home before last light at 134 knots (19L/hr) 

[facthunter]

 I related pretty well to my Citabria 7ECA.   The lack of Flaps didn't concern me as it sideslips well.  Did some quite log trips. Goolwa in one hop and could have just made Adelaide. No nosewheel to add drag.  Nev

[Carbon Canary]

Coming back to my original observation, first the Tecnam P2010 and now the F4 both are cheaper than a C172 / PA28, go faster, carry more weight and fly further on a tank. Will Textron and Piper ever respond with a ‘new’ product in this market segment ?

[Carbon Canary]

A bit of thread drift here, but right on cue, an article about improved battery technology and its influence on aviation.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2023-05-03/catl-announces-battery-to-make-electric-aviation-possible/102289310?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web

[sfGnome]

“CATL's condensed battery leverages highly conductive biomimetic condensed state electrolytes to construct a micron-level self-adaptive net structure that can adjust the interactive forces among the chains, thus improving the conductive performance of the cells.”
 

How’s that for a marketing manager’s wet dream. Absolutely no idea what that means… 🤷‍♂️ As always though, I remain hopeful of progress. 

[onetrack]

Biomimetics refers to manufactured systems or processes using chemicals, that mimic biological systems or processes. It looks like the Chinese have invested a lot of effort into this new battery design.

 

The claimed increase in energy density is very substantial, it will be interesting to see how it pans out in practical use.

[skippydiesel]

On 02/05/2023 at 5:30 PM, Carbon Canary said:

Coming back to my original observation, first the Tecnam P2010 and now the F4 both are cheaper than a C172 / PA28, go faster, carry more weight and fly further on a tank. Will Textron and Piper ever respond with a ‘new’ product in this market segment ?

Why should they - Uncle Sam believes his own propaganda. 

 

I am led to believe that braking into the US market (the largest by far for light aircraft sales) requires some sort of metamorphosis (including blood transfusion) into being viewed, by parochial customers, as a "good old boy"/made in the USA therefore OK..

[Carbon Canary]

16 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Why should they - Uncle Sam believes his own propaganda. 

 

I am led to believe that braking into the US market (the largest by far for light aircraft sales) requires some sort of metamorphosis (including blood transfusion) into being viewed, by parochial customers, as a "good old boy"/made in the USA therefore OK..

Fair point, although beyond the CubCrafters, I believe Flight Design (German) is the highest selling in the LSA category. 

However LSAs sales in the US are miniscule compared to GA and GA is where I started this discussion

I also suspect that Americans don't wish to admit that the highest selling GA aircraft in the USA - Cirrus, are wholly owned by the Chinese government.

[skippydiesel]

No matter the current owner,  Cirrus is a US design and, I believe, still made in the US ,so technicalities like ownership can pretty much be overlooked (if so desired).

 

I would also contend that Cirrus is very much an Uncle Sam concepts (despite its compost airframe) in that it is powered by a humongous (compared with my 912ULS) gas guzzler of an engine.which seems to appeal to Americans.

 

As for FlightDdesign - I think they have a N American factory (metamorphosis) and much like the 1/4 horse (95% hype) the CT is  more promotion than performance  - much better performers/less cost on the same HP from Europe.. 

[Thruster88]

I see the aussie Sling agent has registered the first sling tsi high wing in Australia and it has a 916 engine. Similar or better performance and useful load as the current model C182.