CASA giveth, and CASA taketh away - Basic Class 2 Medical

[old man emu]

What a crock!

 

CASA makes a big thing of making the medical standard for recreational pilots equal to those for drivers of heavy vehicles. 

 

Last month I had my medical for my vehicle driver's licence, and at the same time, examining the same decrepit body, the doctor completed the CASA medical report. For several years I have been using a CPAP machine for sleep apnoea. Each year I am assessed by a sleep disorder specialist as part of the driver's medical. Therefore the Transport mob is happy to allow me to drive a juggernaut through Sydney during peak hour. They will also let me drive a bus, fully loaded with school children all over Australia.

 

But CASA won't let me fly a light aircraft over the Outback. Here's what they said:

Specifically, you:  

·         do not meet the RAMPC criteria due to sleep apnoea.

The following outlines the reason why this condition/history is considered to have an impact on a pilot’s ability to fly safely and therefore precludes the issue of a RAMPC:

·         Respiratory physician has found you as meeting conditional licence for AMS commercial standards. Although the applicable standard for RAMPC is AMS private standards; for sleep apnoea the criteria to hold an unconditional private licence is the same as that of unconditional commercial medical standard.

 

The condition on my driver's licence is that I have to control my sleep apnoea through the use of a CPAP machine. 

 

For your information, my Respiratory Physician told me that if you are over about 50 years of age, and snore, have a high BMI, you have sleep apnoea. It's just a natural aging of the throat muscles.

[turboplanner]

31 minutes ago, old man emu said:

What a crock!

 

CASA makes a big thing of making the medical standard for recreational pilots equal to those for drivers of heavy vehicles. 

 

Last month I had my medical for my vehicle driver's licence, and at the same time, examining the same decrepit body, the doctor completed the CASA medical report. For several years I have been using a CPAP machine for sleep apnoea. Each year I am assessed by a sleep disorder specialist as part of the driver's medical. Therefore the Transport mob is happy to allow me to drive a juggernaut through Sydney during peak hour. They will also let me drive a bus, fully loaded with school children all over Australia.

 

But CASA won't let me fly a light aircraft over the Outback. Here's what they said:

Specifically, you:  

·         do not meet the RAMPC criteria due to sleep apnoea.

The following outlines the reason why this condition/history is considered to have an impact on a pilot’s ability to fly safely and therefore precludes the issue of a RAMPC:

·         Respiratory physician has found you as meeting conditional licence for AMS commercial standards. Although the applicable standard for RAMPC is AMS private standards; for sleep apnoea the criteria to hold an unconditional private licence is the same as that of unconditional commercial medical standard.

 

The condition on my driver's licence is that I have to control my sleep apnoea through the use of a CPAP machine. 

 

For your information, my Respiratory Physician told me that if you are over about 50 years of age, and snore, have a high BMI, you have sleep apnoea. It's just a natural aging of the throat muscles.

Earlier this month I spent several days researching this subject and provided a lot of information. The Basic Class 2 licence is a lower cost process, but suits a younger pilot with no medical issues.  I provided the very detailed NHVR Commercial licence system and the documents on how NHVR controls conditions and freedoms in a similar way to CASA.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Earlier this month

Yes. I recall the discussion. But how does CASA justify denying a medical clearance that they claim is based on a medical standard that allows me to drive a fully loaded B-Double down Parramatta Road in peak hour, yet I am not allowed to fly a 1200 kg four-seater aeroplane (basic C-172) in Day VMC? Did I mention that the same NHVR medical report allows me to retain my Public Passenger Vehicle Driver Authority? Which means that I can drive a bendy bus full of primary school-aged children all over Sydney, and even from Sydney to Canberra so that they can visit the Seat of Government.

 

I haven't looked at the way to appeal, but since the name of the highly qualified medico who knocked me back is Obaid Soomro, I don't think an appeal would have a snowflake's hope in Hell of succeeding. To quote from the email: you have a disqualifying condition prescribed in subregulation 67.263(2) of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 (CASR). Or in other words:

[facthunter]

They brought up this sleep Apnoea thing big time quite a few years ago now. They will also ground you for having any form of cancer. You are just another part of THEIR success  story of ridding the sky of Pilots.. One chief medical Officer of Indian descent would write you down as "Psychologically Unstable " IF you disputed him on anything.. That particular person is not there now but as they don't get paid much some equally qualified?? person is probably there CURRENTLY. . Welcome to the real world of Aviation in OZ.  Nev

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

Yes. I recall the discussion. But how does CASA justify denying a medical clearance that they claim is based on a medical standard that allows me to drive a fully loaded B-Double down Parramatta Road in peak hour, yet I am not allowed to fly a 1200 kg four-seater aeroplane (basic C-172) in Day VMC? Did I mention that the same NHVR medical report allows me to retain my Public Passenger Vehicle Driver Authority? Which means that I can drive a bendy bus full of primary school-aged children all over Sydney, and even from Sydney to Canberra so that they can visit the Seat of Government.

 

I haven't looked at the way to appeal, but since the name of the highly qualified medico who knocked me back is Obaid Soomro, I don't think an appeal would have a snowflake's hope in Hell of succeeding. To quote from the email: you have a disqualifying condition prescribed in subregulation 67.263(2) of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 (CASR). Or in other words:

 

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

Yes. I recall the discussion. But how does CASA justify denying a medical clearance that they claim is based on a medical standard that allows me to drive a fully loaded B-Double down Parramatta Road in peak hour, yet I am not allowed to fly a 1200 kg four-seater aeroplane (basic C-172) in Day VMC? Did I mention that the same NHVR medical report allows me to retain my Public Passenger Vehicle Driver Authority? Which means that I can drive a bendy bus full of primary school-aged children all over Sydney, and even from Sydney to Canberra so that they can visit the Seat of Government.

 

I haven't looked at the way to appeal, but since the name of the highly qualified medico who knocked me back is Obaid Soomro, I don't think an appeal would have a snowflake's hope in Hell of succeeding. To quote from the email: you have a disqualifying condition prescribed in subregulation 67.263(2) of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 (CASR). Or in other words:

From memory your pathway would be Class 2, not Basic Class 2. 
I can’t remember the authorities making a comparison between Basic Class 2 and Unconditional Commercial Licence, but plenty of posters have used those words so I highlighted the Commercial licence pathways and I think I posted or highlighted 2 or 3. Not sure if they included SA. Also there are several licences for the different truck and combinations which will come into it.
 

 

 

[Flying_higher]

Yep, it has to be Unconditional. Has nothing to do with risk, but control. 
 

I am aware that there are many people using a Class 2 with managed sleep apnoea. I wish you luck!

[old man emu]

They did say to go to a DAME and get passed by that doctor. Then they provided a link so I could find a DAME locally. It was really good. I got a response of 404.

 

I did finally get onto a list of DAMEs. Typical of the assistant CASA gives, the list is alphabetical by surname, with no ability to search by location. So one wastes more time scrolling through the names of doctors from Longford in Middlesex to deepest, darkest Africa. to find one within reasonable proximity.

 

I bet when I make the appointment and hand over the Basic Class 2 medical and the Respiratory Specialist's report, I'll be out of the DAME's office before the door I came in by has had a chance to close. At least the GP who did the original examination combined it with my driver's medical and only charged me for one examination.

[facthunter]

IF it's any comfort I have less drowsiness when driving than I had over 20 years ago and I have no idea why. Nev

[onetrack]

Nev, would that be because you prefer to drive noisy, rattley, old vintage motorbikes? 

[turboplanner]

14 minutes ago, old man emu said:

They did say to go to a DAME and get passed by that doctor. Then they provided a link so I could find a DAME locally. It was really good. I got a response of 404.

 

I did finally get onto a list of DAMEs. Typical of the assistant CASA gives, the list is alphabetical by surname, with no ability to search by location. So one wastes more time scrolling through the names of doctors from Longford in Middlesex to deepest, darkest Africa. to find one within reasonable proximity.

 

I bet when I make the appointment and hand over the Basic Class 2 medical and the Respiratory Specialist's report, I'll be out of the DAME's office before the door I came in by has had a chance to close. At least the GP who did the original examination combined it with my driver's medical and only charged me for one examination.

The reason you can’t get a Basic Class 2 is the Doctor is not authorised to manage ANY Conditions. The reason you might get a Class 2 to is that DAMES are authorised to Manage some Conditions.

[facthunter]

I don't think so. I always have mufflers fitted as noise is horrible when riding long distances.  I love some of the Modern vehicles (CARS) I don't know HOW people ever got a great kick out of driving an MG TC. though I'd Ferry A Caterham  for someone cheaply across the Nullarbour.. The old and the NEW. It's possible to fall asleep on a motorcycle. Nev

[greybeard]

You should try it with hypertension ( been under control and all tests within young healthy person spec for over 15 years) and I tripped the type 2 diabetes around the same time (also under control with diet and never tripped the limits since for a similar period). I just gave up after the annual medical requirement, best part of $1k of out of pocket tests (stress test doctor was getting pissed off at the waste of time and effort testing me when he could be spending his time on sick people) and the four month+ turn around for casa to tick box. Medical delays always put me out of currency. Just for the record, you might have guessed, I'm not dead yet!

[spacesailor]

SO !

After reading of bureaucracy , that controls not administers, 

I think I will Deny any ' diagnosed ' illnesses. 

i have aready sacked my heart Dr,  as he never gave me any results,  but sent them to the ' cloud ';

For anyone who knows how to scam me, can read my results .

SO , officially on paper ! ,

I know nothing ,( Schultz ) .

spacesailor

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by spacesailor
Spelling

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

The reason you can’t get a Basic Class 2 is the Doctor is not authorised to manage ANY Conditions.

Most GPs don't "manage" chronic conditions themselves. They send you to a specialist. If you think about it, that is a sensible way to do things. Your LAME, L2 doesn't do the calibration certification for your altimeter. It's sent to an instrument maker who is a specialist. Same for your avionics. 

 

However, since 2017, when Transport for NSW began asking for reports on my sleep apnoea, the same Respiratory Specialist has been "managing" my condition. That management consists of an annual download of the data from my CPAP machine and a quick look at it. Last time I got chipped for not using the machine every night, but since I wasn't driving buses, I was let off. So what makes CASA think that a DAME, who doesn't know me, nor has never been involved in my diagnosis nor reviews is "managing" my condition?

[KRviator]

25 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Most GPs don't "manage" chronic conditions themselves. They send you to a specialist. If you think about it, that is a sensible way to do things. Your LAME, L2 doesn't do the calibration certification for your altimeter. It's sent to an instrument maker who is a specialist. Same for your avionics. 

 

However, since 2017, when Transport for NSW began asking for reports on my sleep apnoea, the same Respiratory Specialist has been "managing" my condition. That management consists of an annual download of the data from my CPAP machine and a quick look at it. Last time I got chipped for not using the machine every night, but since I wasn't driving buses, I was let off. So what makes CASA think that a DAME, who doesn't know me, nor has never been involved in my diagnosis nor reviews is "managing" my condition?

OME the DAME won't be managing your condition, he'll simply want to see reports from those that are managing your condition to determine it's risk "to the safety of air navigation".

So before you go to 'im (the DAME2) get the (or go and get a) report from your breathing quack to say "Yes, OME does have sleep apnoa, it's been and continues to be, successfully managed by the CPAP machine, for which I have read the automated reports of him using it appropriately and as such, as a breathing quack, I deem him safe". Will save you playing Doctor Ping between the DAME & specialist pong getting reports etc etc.

[turboplanner]

21 minutes ago, KRviator said:

OME the DAME won't be managing your condition, he'll simply want to see reports from those that are managing your condition to determine it's risk "to the safety of air navigation".

So before you go to 'im (the DAME2) get the (or go and get a) report from your breathing quack to say "Yes, OME does have sleep apnoa, it's been and continues to be, successfully managed by the CPAP machine, for which I have read the automated reports of him using it appropriately and as such, as a breathing quack, I deem him safe". Will save you playing Doctor Ping between the DAME & specialist pong getting reports etc etc.

Before jumping off the deep end over a word I used, or the definition of its use, I would simply recommend reading what I posted earlier in the month because it was in very straightforward English and explained what has to be done to get approval.

[KRviator]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Before jumping off the deep end over a word I used, or the definition of its use, I would simply recommend reading what I posted earlier in the month because it was in very straightforward English and explained what has to be done to get approval.

UUhhh, what are you on about? I quoted OME not you?

The only things you have posted earlier in this thread relate to the AustRoads Commercial Standards, which don't apply as Sleep Apnoea is a disqualifying condition for the AustRoads Unconditional Commercial medical standards, which is required for the Basic Class 2. it matters not one whit whether you could obtain a Conditional licence medical, as the Basic C2 requires your health to meet the unconditional standards.

What is important though, is the qualifications contained within the AustRoads standards, for Sleep Apnoea "if the person has an established sleep apnoea syndrome (sleep apnoea on a diagnostic sleep study and moderate to severe excessive daytime sleepiness". OME has a diagnosis of Sleep Apnoea (presumably), but if there's no evidence of daytime sleepiness, then the threshold is not met and OME would meet the AustRoads standards unconditionally...

[walrus]

The basic medical is a deliberate sham. 

 

‘’Why? Because it requires a GP to certify that you have no “conditions” - that is what “unconditionally “ means.

 

A “condition” is one of millions of possible dimensions of a human that is outside the established range of values for a particular branch of humanity. For example “alopecia” Hair loss, is a condition that technically can be used by CASA to exclude you.

 

There are very, very few people in the world who do not have a “condition” of one sort or another. ..And I’m including one year old babies in that classification “people”.

 

No one can pass the standard if CASA puts its mind to it since everyone has at least one condition.

 

‘’Regarding sleep apnea, I saw the question on BMI slither onto the class 2 medical questionnaire about 2012 and correctly predicted that sleep apnea was going to become a trendy addition to CASAs aresenal.

 

Of course CASAs wet dream would be to require you to provide your DNA for genetic screening - just imagine! Millions of conditions ! They could then build impossible medical regulatory structures. Please don’t think I’m joking.

[turboplanner]

11 hours ago, KRviator said:

UUhhh, what are you on about? I quoted OME not you?

OME and you were both talking about "managing"; that might not be the correct word to better for OME to look at exactly what the regs says becaise he is directly involved for his outcome.

11 hours ago, KRviator said:

The only things you have posted earlier in this thread relate to the AustRoads Commercial Standards, which don't apply as Sleep Apnoea is a disqualifying condition for the AustRoads Unconditional Commercial medical standards, which is required for the Basic Class 2. it matters not one whit whether you could obtain a Conditional licence medical, as the Basic C2 requires your health to meet the unconditional standards.

What is important though, is the qualifications contained within the AustRoads standards, for Sleep Apnoea "if the person has an established sleep apnoea syndrome (sleep apnoea on a diagnostic sleep study and moderate to severe excessive daytime sleepiness". OME has a diagnosis of Sleep Apnoea (presumably), but if there's no evidence of daytime sleepiness, then the threshold is not met and OME would meet the AustRoads standards unconditionally...

You must have missed my earlier post in "The latest Outstanding Communication from RA-AUS where the discussion started, and which includes a lot of interesting points about Medicals and the proposed RA 760 kg limit.

 

On April 7 I posted the CASA details:

 

4: MEDICALS, Source: CASA.gov.au

 

 

Class 1 Medical certificate

·       Air Transport Pilot Licence

·       Commercial Pilot Licence (other than Balloons)

·       Multi-Crew Pilot Licence

·       Flight Engineer Licence

 

Class 2 Medical Certificate

·       Since 2018 CPL can do some operations with a Class 2 Medical

Basic Class 2 Medical Certificate

Same standard as an Unconditional Commercial Driver standard and allows for vision correction and hearing aids. (Refer Austroads).

·       Only private day operations under VFR below 10,000’

·       Max 5 passengers

·       Only piston engine aircraft

·       MTOW less than 8618 kg

·       No use of Operator Ratings such as instructor rating, instrument rating

·       No use of aerobatics or low level (except if valid Class 1 or 2 in a flight seat)

·       Does not allow for the management of medical conditions a DAME or CASA can consider when issuing a normal Class 2 Certificate.

 

FOOTNOTE: Class 2 Medical Certificate would mormally be the one for PPL flying GA aircraft including the bottom end (Cessna 150,152 etc)

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by turboplanner

[old man emu]

17 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

On April 7 I posted the CASA details:

There is no argument that what you have quoted are the criteria and your own comments are valid. My source of annoyance is that CASA is ignoring this"

12 hours ago, KRviator said:

the qualifications contained within the AustRoads standards, for Sleep Apnoea "if the person has an established sleep apnoea syndrome (sleep apnoea on a diagnostic sleep study and moderate to severe excessive daytime sleepiness".

I have never, even before the diagnosis, suffered from moderate to severe excessive daytime sleepiness. The reason I was sent to a specialist was simply because of my BMI being above the level set in the AusRoad criteria. According to this calculator

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/tools/body-mass-index-calculator-for-adult , for my height - 178 cm - I should weigh 75 kg. I'd have to drink muddy water to cast a shadow. However, since 2017 when I started to need a specialist's report to pass my AusRoad medical, I have never been failed. Further, I have to pass a higher standard to hold a public passenger vehicle driver's authority, which I do. This is all on the basis of the specialist's report.

 

Regarding the value of BMI as a diagnostic tool, The BMI was introduced in the early 19th century by a Belgian named Lambert Adolphe Jacques Quetelet. He was a mathematician, not a physician. He produced the formula to give a quick and easy way to measure the degree of obesity of the general population to assist the government in allocating resources. In other words, it is a 200-year-old hack. He said said explicitly that it could not and should not be used to indicate the level of fatness in an individual. There is no physiological reason to square a person's height (Quetelet had to square the height to get a formula that matched the overall data. If you can't fix the data, rig the formula!). Moreover, it ignores waist size, which is a clear indicator of obesity level.

 

This article gives reasons to debunk BMI as a diagnostic tool. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439#:~:text=The BMI was introduced in,the government in allocating resources.

 

Here's an irony. This year, as I have said, my GP completed both my AusRoad medical report and Basic Class 2 report at the same time. In fact, since the Basic Class 2 report is more detailed, he completed that form and simply copied results onto the AusRoad report. Then I stuffed it up with the driver's licence mob and they said that I had not used the correct form. We agreed that I would send the Basic Class 2 report to them as it was not convenient for me to go to Sydney just to get the correct form completed. They quite happily have accepted that report and renewed my licence and authority. 

 

Now that I've got all wound up, I might take advantage of what KRviator has quoted and fire it back at CASA with a 'Pauline".

 

In the end, if I have to pay a DAME for a review of my Basic Class 2 status, I might as well fork out the $250 and join RAA, although at the moment I have access to a VH- aircraft at a reasonable hourly rate.

[aro]

22 minutes ago, old man emu said:

My source of annoyance is that CASA is ignoring this

CASA don't do any assessment for the basic class 2. Basic class 2 boils down to a yes/no question to be answered by your GP: do you meet the standard for an unconditional commercial driver license.

By applying a condition, your GP has said no and the basic class 2 is not available.

 

CASA will do their own assessment if you want them to - it is the normal class 2. The standard for a regular class 2 is less strict than a basic class 2, but you may need to provide more supporting information.

 

The basic class 2 a cheaper path for uncomplicated cases, not a lower standard.

[turboplanner]

40 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Now that I've got all wound up, I might take advantage of what KRviator has quoted and fire it back at CASA with a 'Pauline".

You have a background in reading legislation, I'd suggest going over the CASA standards again; I agree with what ARO has said.

40 minutes ago, old man emu said:

 

In the end, if I have to pay a DAME for a review of my Basic Class 2 status, I might as well fork out the $250 and join RAA, although at the moment I have access to a VH- aircraft at a reasonable hourly rate.

Because of the SA flag,  Basic Class 2 is out so I would just go to a DAME for a Class 2.  I'd forget the comparisons with Road Medicals. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by turboplanner

[turboplanner]

Here's the CASA Site DAME list database set to DAME and NSW:https://www.casa.gov.au/search-centre/aviation-medical-contacts?search_api_fulltext=&field_tx_suburb_town_city=&field_tx_country=&sort_by=title&sort_order=ASC&field_tx_dame_types_services[]=27667&field_tx_state_territory[]=168

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Here's the CASA Site DAME list database s

Thanks. I did find one in Dubbo.

[coljones]

On 30/04/2023 at 10:54 AM, old man emu said:

Yes. I recall the discussion. But how does CASA justify denying a medical clearance that they claim is based on a medical standard that allows me to drive a fully loaded B-Double down Parramatta Road in peak hour, yet I am not allowed to fly a 1200 kg four-seater aeroplane (basic C-172) in Day VMC? Did I mention that the same NHVR medical report allows me to retain my Public Passenger Vehicle Driver Authority? Which means that I can drive a bendy bus full of primary school-aged children all over Sydney, and even from Sydney to Canberra so that they can visit the Seat of Government.

 

I haven't looked at the way to appeal, but since the name of the highly qualified medico who knocked me back is Obaid Soomro, I don't think an appeal would have a snowflake's hope in Hell of succeeding. To quote from the email: you have a disqualifying condition prescribed in subregulation 67.263(2) of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 (CASR). Or in other words:

I wouldn't give 75% of the drivers on Parramatta Rd a licence of any description.