life insurance for aviators

[BrendAn]

i have found myself in a predicament regarding life insurance.

i asked my insurer today if i am covered in an ultralight and was told no, not even in the flying school aircraft.

they only cover me if i am a paying passenger on a commercial airliner.

its very important to me to know my wife is looked after should anything happen to me,

my new hobbie might be over before it begins. i can't get insurance off anyone else because as soon as i tick diabetes

and blood pressure on the forms i get automatically rejected even though these things are under control and i am healthy.

wondering if anyone else has had this problem and found a way around it.

[KRviator]

I looked at it several years ago with a couple of insurers and both rejected it when I said I flew privately. Same thing, anything smaller than RPT and you're not covered. One of them (BT ? The default one from St George, anyway) had a clause to the effect of "I do not partake in any activities in the list of prohibited activities" and when I rang them up asking "Well, where's this list, it's not in your PDS" they replied "Oh, no, it's not. It's commercial in confidence, you tell us what activities you do, and WE will tell YOU if it is on the list" - they had no comeback when I said "Well, how can I avoid doing anything spontaneous or off-the-cuff if I don't know I won't be covered if you won't provide 'the list'". Arsehats.

Short answer is, if you fly recreationally, you've got little to no chance of finding life or income protection insurance at any reasonable rate.

[BrendAn]

3 minutes ago, KRviator said:

I looked at it several years ago with a couple of insurers and both rejected it when I said I flew privately. Same thing, anything smaller than RPT and you're not covered. One of them (BT ? The default one from St George, anyway) had a clause to the effect of "I do not partake in any activities in the list of prohibited activities" and when I rang them up asking "Well, where's this list, it's not in your PDS" they replied "Oh, no, it's not. It's commercial in confidence, you tell us what activities you do, and WE will tell YOU if it is on the list" - they had no comeback when I said "Well, how can I avoid doing anything spontaneous or off-the-cuff if I don't know I won't be covered if you won't provide 'the list'". Arsehats.

Short answer is, if you fly recreationally, you've got little to no chance of finding life or income protection insurance at any reasonable rate.

last year i was going to switch insurers but no one else would accept me on medical grounds, even my own insurer refused to let me increase my current policy.  i was hoping there might be an aviation minded insurer that would look at it. they really are baastards. i have given the motherf@@kers thousands of dollars over the years and they are not interested in helping at all.

[spacesailor]

Here's the thing about insurance. 

Do you know Anyone  , who got the insurance that they paid for all those years .

When it happens , that money you have paid in , ends up helping your wifes NEW FRIEND. 

What do I mean , A work college lost her hubby, & the insurance paid off the mortgage,  then a NEW friend, 

Moved in , & she had another baby for the new guy. 

Three years later he had enough,  then when he left her . .He DEMANDED half her assets .

So her house was sold to pay him out.

Blooody good money , for two or three years of putting up with someone & their kids .

Remember all those women who took the ' widower's ' to the cleaners .

(  lived on Fitzwilliam rd ,toongabbie )

 

spacesailor

[onetrack]

It always pays to remember that insurance companies operate on the same principle as banks - they hold an umbrella over you when the sun is shining - but pull it away when it starts to pour. I give both of them as little money as possible.

Put the money you'd pay an insurance company into an asset that gives good returns, and the amount will soon build up into a sizeable backstop. After all, isn't that what insurance companies do with your money, anyway?

[BrendAn]

Yes. I understand but it still makes me angry thinking they can just cut my payment off like that .  I did read that if the flying clause was not in the original documents sent to me that they will pay out.

A couple of weeks back I spoke to the Allianz rep about my driver's work cover. 10k P/a and it only comes in if they have an accident on site or loading.  The trucks are loaded by factory people and they are sitting in the cab when unloading. On the road they are covered by tac insurance. Which means that 10k a year definitely goes to other people's payouts.

[gareth lacey]

1990 working at the submarine base in Sydney, ladder broke in half as i climbed up to do some welding on abeam, fell 6 metres broke my hip, had insurance which kicked in at 6 weeks ,i was then on crutches, they then "deemed " me fit for other work , what as i say ,oh desk work, they say fxxking parasites ,read the small print ,i then put that money away for the next 20 years ,and this is what now funds my flying build 

also my wife was pregnant with our twins but during the pregnancy wifey experienced indimitiosis and the health insurer didnt want to pay took them to the health ombudsman and won ,after the kids were born "that cost them a bomb in private ,2 weeks in St Margarets" then cancelled our insurance , now have none other than house and car Fxxking parasites are all insurers

 

[johnm]

might be all the same but if you have a superannuation account that you are contributing to - ask them re life insurance

[turboplanner]

I think there's some confusion between Life Insurance and Life Assurance.

If you take out a Life Assurance policy the units compound and they belong to you; the policy also has a death benefit with conditions.

By the time you are in the high risk category you'ce accumulated more than the payout, and you invest that, allowing it to continue to compound and it's yours for life no matter what risky business you get into.

Problem is, no one tells you this; it should be taught in school.

[spacesailor]

I must tell my children & grandchildren. 

I'm betting they have , like me , never heard of it .

spacesailor

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I think there's some confusion between Life Insurance and Life Assurance.

If you take out a Life Assurance policy the units compound and they belong to you; the policy also has a death benefit with conditions.

By the time you are in the high risk category you'ce accumulated more than the payout, and you invest that, allowing it to continue to compound and it's yours for life no matter what risky business you get into.

Problem is, no one tells you this; it should be taught in school.

Never heard of that one. 

[facthunter]

Capitalism is about maximising profits so a good business plan, doesn't take on dicey  work and they can't be forced to.  Some super funds may go there and have a loss of earnings or death benefit which is what most people want but you must always read the fine print all of which should be available on  request. You cant deal with something you are kept in the dark about till something happens and you then find you've been paying for something they have NEVER been required to give you. THAT''S FRAUD. Nev

[KRviator]

Doesn't seem to be easily available in Australia - typing it into Google only brings back Insurance policies, the Assurance providers are in the US or UK. I've certainly never heard of it before down here...

[sfGnome]

I may be wrong, but it think it died out here when compulsory superannuation came in. Life assurance is essentially the same as superannuation with insurance. I had life assurance when the kids were little, but then let it sit so it still provided insurance but put the dues into better investments. 

[spacesailor]

KR keep trying , I like the others are intrigued by , the though of getting something we have no Information of .

spacesailor

[facthunter]

Resembles religion maybe?  Nev

[spenaroo]

there is something on this in the first chapter of the Barefoot Investor,
something to do with superannuation and guarantee future earnings. I know the book says you need to contact the Super fund and request it,

it also requires more payments - but is better then a life insurance policy

 

been a while since I read it

[turboplanner]

16 minutes ago, sfGnome said:

I may be wrong, but it think it died out here when compulsory superannuation came in. Life assurance is essentially the same as superannuation with insurance. I had life assurance when the kids were little, but then let it sit so it still provided insurance but put the dues into better investments. 

Yes, but from the comments I'd say the people spent a lot of their life in the Life Assurance time.

 

[Area-51]

Read the fine print... enter C word where required...

 

what ever "is not" included within policy wording or PDS is covered and contestable against the underwriter in court or by the ombudsman or both.... but they will first claim insured did not inform insurer in writing at time of policy application... remember the "quality assurance and training purposes" statement on every phone call? 😀👍👍

 

All life insurance policies are null and void since covid vaccine rollout. Read the fine print regarding "medical trial participation".

 

Enter C word again as required. 😊

[turboplanner]

13 hours ago, onetrack said:

It always pays to remember that insurance companies operate on the same principle as banks - they hold an umbrella over you when the sun is shining - but pull it away when it starts to pour. I give both of them as little money as possible.

Put the money you'd pay an insurance company into an asset that gives good returns, and the amount will soon build up into a sizeable backstop. After all, isn't that what insurance companies do with your money, anyway?

Yes, but they spread the risk over hundreds of thousands of people who all aren't going to crash a plane at once and more importantly they ""cover" the risk in the same way as a bookie does with premium changes and they get the money in by month up front and don't have to pay until you have an accident so that makes more money which allows lower premiums than someone covering his own costs.

 

[Carbon Canary]

Hmmm, you motivated me to check the PDS of my policy through Super.

 

The only specific cover exclusion for death, terminal illness or TPD is from an act of war, or service in the armed forces or if a payment would expose the insurer to sanctions under UN resolutions.

That's it.

[MattP]

You need to ring them and check if its not specifically listed. In the past I've had life / trauma insurance with various methods applied to limit their exposure / extract cash based on private flying being declared:

 

1. Premium increase (100% increase in premium for one policy I had)

2. Limits on hours (less than x hours = no increase, more than y hours =  no increase). I was in the middle, so premium increased

3. Higher cost in premium than other policies but no exclusion on the activities (Some may exclude specific types of flying - e.g. competition aerobatics.)

 

Note, not all policies provided by the same company are the same either. E.g. some employers have policies as part of their employment offering that beat what you can get on the open market, others do not. You really need to do your homework.

 

Also note, this means you're unlikely to find the cover you want cheaply compared to other policies, so as the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

 

Same for things like travel insurance, which generally (and most people don't check) doesn't cover pre-existing conditions without declaration.

[onetrack]

I reckon I've seen very few life insurance policies that cover private flying in single-engine light aircraft, unless cover for it was specifically requested. When that occurs, the premiums go up substantially.

[Area-51]

Again, if it's not included in the policy wording as an "exclusion" then you are covered... this is not my opinion, its a fact provided by an experienced senior underwriter for QBE. All claims that are not straight forward clear cut are denied in the first round; leaving the policy holder to pursue a settlement.

 

insurance companies are a business and will be more than happy to upsell and create additional clauses within a policy for a fee on a "risk based analysis" assessment; even if they are not required... if you request it then most will service at a fee...

 

Employing a broker is the best way to go as they will endeavour to find the policy and underwriter that best matches your individual situation... And yes, you get what you pay for...

 

for some reason, regardless of industry, as soon as the word aviation is mentioned normal humans enter into some kind of a trance of impossibility...

Edited May 5, 2023 by Area-51

[Area-51]

https://www.pilotlifeinsurance.com.au/