life insurance for aviators

[kasper]

2 hours ago, Carbon Canary said:

Hmmm, you motivated me to check the PDS of my policy through Super.

 

The only specific cover exclusion for death, terminal illness or TPD is from an act of war, or service in the armed forces or if a payment would expose the insurer to sanctions under UN resolutions.

That's it.

Be aware that super fund insurance is almost always just a group policy with their insurer and that insurance policy will have exclusions and/or additional premiums that your super fund may not cross add or even link to in their materials to you as the super fund provider.

 

eg.  My super fund as Life/TPD insurance with Zurich - my super fund fail to mention anything about exclusions but refer to Zurich as the insurer and that their policy applies ... Zurich excluded activities is a lovely fun list of exclusions and escalations of premiums - take a look at page 4 of the attached for general information - its not actually my coverage exclusion as the super fund negotiated an amended list for the members.

 

But looking at the general info I find it a bit harsh to include fixed wing pilots up to 100hr/yr as standard for all insurance but have added premium or exclusion for ultralights, microlights and hanggliding ... but its their sandpit and they set the rules.

 

In reality if you want to rely on super insurance to provide the 'top up' to super core lump sum you need to talk to your super provider and get them to confirm what is included/excluded.  I say this from personal experience having worked in a superannuation consultancy to superannuation funds as a legal adviser and for an insurance company.  It is was not unknown in the past for the super fund to have contracted coverage to their members under their cover when they have no coverage from their insurer for the same risk.

 

And before the boos and hisses I left insurance/banking/superannuation consulting years ago and have been doing good in the charity/not for profit sector for the past decade or so ... I am a semi reformed character despite being a solicitor, actuary and accountant.  😉

zurich-activity-guidelines.pdf

Edited May 5, 2023 by kasper

[facthunter]

You can't expect to have risky pastimes covered without a cost increase. You always pay for the actions of fools and careless cowboys and the lesser skilled. In times past you got a reduced premium for being teetotal (alcohol abstainer).. Why not? Nev

[MattP]

Yep expecting cover without paying isn't realistic, but the insurance exists and is available.

 

As I mentioned, for those still working also check what your employer offers as they may offer their own specific policies as part of their super plan offering  or a specific tailored policy that covers various things. 

I had this with my previous employer who's health and life / TPD insurances were custom products that I found out the hard way weren't available on the open market once leaving their employ. 

[Carbon Canary]

I dug a bit deeper, and pulled up a new application for insurance on my Super fund website.  It contained the following questions :

 

Do you regularly engage in, or intend to engage in, any of the following hazardous sports or activities? Please tick all boxes that apply.

Water sports or activities e.g. snorkelling, scuba diving, free diving

Motor sports or activities e.g. motorcycle, motorcar, motor boat

Snow/winter sports or activities e.g. skiing, snowboarding, ice skating, ice hockey

Aerial sports or activities or aviation e.g. skydiving, hang gliding, parachuting, ballooning

Combat sports or martial arts e.g. taekwondo, boxing, fencing

Field sports or team sports e.g. hockey, football including touch or soccer, roller derby

Horse riding or equestrian activities e.g. polo, rodeo , dressage, jumping

Rock climbing, abseiling or other adventure sports or activities e.g. mountain biking, parkour

Any other hazardous sport or activity not mentioned

 

Now the problem for me is that I have held the insurance policy through the super fund for so long, I have no idea how I answered the questions, but I fully expect I did tick the box for aerial sports as I have been committing aviation for a long time.  I think the super fund also have changed insurance providers over that time as well, but imagine the policies were simply novated across to the new provider.

 

So I guess I will need to phone the super fund and ask some hypothetical questions regarding my cover and to see if my premium needs to change.

 

[BrendAn]

i made a few calls today. 1st to raaus where i was given the name and number of their broker. geoff the broker was very helpful we went through what is covered by our raaus policy which is liability only as we knew anyway. pilots family receives nothing but passenger is covered to 250 k.  geoff has recommended agile insurance, they have a death only policy for fixed wing aircraft only which means the gyro will have to go.  the agile policy for 250k is 1200 a year.

i still have to go through my life insurance policy to see if they actually put the flying exclusion in the original  pds.

[spacesailor]

Mmm ! .

I think we should be an " aviation Club " .

Hopefully any insurance company will give us member's a substantial discount. 

spacesailor

[facthunter]

A rare burst of optimism?  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

I was saved from buying life insurance when the salesman said that flying would cost me more. I asked where was the discount for not smoking..  and where were the figures to justify this stuff?

Well he lost any sale when he told me that it was not for the likes of us to question the actuaries who had worked out all the premiums.

A colleague who didn't fly lost all his investment in the insurance stuff, but he was a silly guy anyway.

SO...  Don't pay them any money...  buy something else.

[facthunter]

It's a gamble for both participants The actuarial accuracy is paramount, Like a bookies odds and reinsuring is a part of it. Don't gamble UNLESS you can AFFORD to lose is wise advice.. Once o na cockpit vist in a B747 I had a talk with a Lloyds insurer who had just been doing a deal witht the Chinese Govt and the gov't felt they could ot afford to be uninsured. Nev

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

i made a few calls today. 1st to raaus where i was given the name and number of their broker. geoff the broker was very helpful we went through what is covered by our raaus policy which is liability only as we knew anyway. pilots family receives nothing but passenger is covered to 250 k.  geoff has recommended agile insurance, they have a death only policy for fixed wing aircraft only which means the gyro will have to go.  the agile policy for 250k is 1200 a year.

i still have to go through my life insurance policy to see if they actually put the flying exclusion in the original  pds.

250k over 1200 = 1 in 208 before insurance  co profit. Is your chance of death while flying really that high per year? My rough analysis suggests it is closer to 1 in 2000 (for active RAAus pilots), still alarmingly high.

 

If you have aviation disease, and it seems like you might, you will not give up flying. Can't get insurance so what to do. The only way forward is to manage your own risk.  I have studied light GA aircraft accidents long before I learned to fly 38 years ago age 21. If you avoid the big three, stalling in any phase of flight including after engine failure, VFR in to IMC, ie flying in cloud while not rated for it and low level beat up you will improve your risk of not dying in an aircraft accident to very near 100%. Treat each flight as a mission and plan accordingly. Think what is going to happen in the next five minutes of this flight as you fly.

[ClintonB]

7 hours ago, Area-51 said:

Read the fine print... enter C word where required...

 

what ever "is not" included within policy wording or PDS is covered and contestable against the underwriter in court or by the ombudsman or both.... but they will first claim insured did not inform insurer in writing at time of policy application... remember the "quality assurance and training purposes" statement on every phone call? 😀👍👍

 

All life insurance policies are null and void since covid vaccine rollout. Read the fine print regarding "medical trial participation".

 

Enter C word again as required. 😊

I had a fight with workers comp over those phone call recordings, I was given help to fill in the forms by their staff over the phone. I gave them times and dates, told them they have the recordings to verify my side of things-oh sorry we can’t find them or don’t have them. If I broke their rules or they had to pay out, I believe they would be found. $8900 dollars later on top of already paid polices - I hat them with a vengeance.

[skippydiesel]

My apologies if this has already been mentioned - A very large percentage of us, in recreational /sport flying, are well beyond any serious  life insurance prospect ie we are on the way out  and even if you managed to obtain life insurance, it is likely to be prohibitively expensive.

[spacesailor]

 

OH !

You mean over FORTY ..

Well that's what the GreatGrandies think  .

Remember their Grandparent's are OLD in their mind .

Nevermind the GREATGrandies .LoL

spacesailor

[sfGnome]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

My apologies if this has already been mentioned - A very large percentage of us, in recreational /sport flying, are well beyond any serious  life insurance prospect ie we are on the way out  and even if you managed to obtain life insurance, it is likely to be prohibitively expensive.

That’s a really important point. I stopped paying insurance premiums when the kids had left home and we had enough assets to support my beloved (without me there to spend it all on crazy dreams). I have a feeling that there’s not too many of us here who are still in the “I better be covered” age group (BrendAn being a notable exception, I’d guess). 

[old man emu]

Assurance and Insurance are two completely different things.

 

A definition of "assurance" is a promise to cause someone to feel certain by removing doubt. So an assurance policy is a promise from the company to pay a nominated sum when an agreed event happens - death, or at the end of a specified period of time.

 

A definition if "insurance" is a promise a thing providing protection against a possible eventuality, which if that does not eventuality happen there is no payment. 

 

An assurance policy can be compared to a forced saving plan which results in reaching a definite goal.

An insurance policy can be compared to betting on a horse race. You only get a pay out if your horse places.

[skippydiesel]

OME - I see your point and having digressed cant see the sence - an example of assurance, would be the host of scamming funeral assurance schemes that seem to be around these days. It may have escaped the notice of many but if you are alive today, you will certainly die sometime in the future. If you need to financially plan for that certainty - go for it but don't use a funeral assurance service to do so, you are wasting your hard earned $$$ ( that you wont enjoy at your expensive funeral anyway)🤣

[facthunter]

I'm not going to tell anyone that I'm dead.  Nev

[johnm]

contrived analysis follows !:

 

a quick look through the list seems to me that insurance sees 'impact' and 'gravity' (sudden stop at the end) ............. as a risk

 

Insurance seems  quiet forgiving when it comes to 'water' 

 

I wonder which category has killed the most (I'd have thought water would be the biggest killer) ?

 

maybe playing with water is tolerated cause we have been doing it longer ......... but those new fangled flying contraptions might take another couple of hundred years to wait before they are tolerated more

 

 

18 hours ago, kasper said:

B

 

eg.  My super fund as Life/TPD insurance with Zurich - my super fund fail to mention anything about exclusions but refer to Zurich as the insurer and that their policy applies ... Zurich excluded activities is a lovely fun list of exclusions and escalations of premiums - take a look at page 4 of the attached for general information - its not actually my coverage exclusion as the super fund negotiated an amended list for the members.

 

😉

zurich-activity-guidelines.pdf 776.54 kB · 3 downloads

 

[danny_galaga]

From all this it sounds like Super is fine. That's all I have anyway. Well, two of them since I still haven't rolled one. Dunno what would happen if I get injured outside of work though...

[old man emu]

5 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

an example of assurance,

That example is not really an assurance policy because it does not specify the sum to be paid when the event occurs, although without looking into one, I suppose the fund would have to make some promise. If you really want to prepare for your funeral, I suggest purchasing your plot now, and keeping the cemetery informed of your contact details. Then you can buy your coffin or casket and store it until needed. I have often considered making my own. It's not beyond the ability of the average DIYer - probably easier than making a chest of drawers. Then you put a clause in your will stating that after your debts and funeral expenses have been paid, the family can fight over what is left.

 

Just to clear things up. With an assurance policy, the assurance company enters into a contract with you to pay a nominated amount of money when  an event takes place. Look at the once popular Endowment policy. The agreement there was that the assurance company would pay you a certain amount of money after an agree time (set by law at a minimum 10 years) if you regularly paid a set amount (premium). Say the agreement was for $10,000 at the end of ten years. You would pay $1000 per year. If however you were knocked off the perch at five and three-quarters years, the assurance company agreed to pay the full $10,000 and cop the loss. If the policy ran the 10 years, then the assurance company had your money to cover payouts to other policyholders.

 

Whole-of-life assurance policies generally only pay out on death, or total and permanent disability, so tend to have slightly cheaper premiums than Endowment policies. And they usually pay you out, dead or alive, if you reach and advanced age, like about 85 years.

 

However, with a insurance policy the assurance company enters into a contract with you to pay a nominated amount of money if an event takes place. If the event happens you win. If not, yu lose. Insurance policies usually only have a life of 12 months, so you have to renegotiate them annually. Sometimes an insurance policy can be for a shorter term - such as crop insurance, it Public Liability insurance for a one-day event.

 

Now, let's not now wander down the sidetrack of immoral practices insurance companies engage in to break the contract, but keep you money. 

 

The moral of the story is that, if you want to provide for your family in the event of your death, buy an assurance policy. And see if you can get one that allows YOU to increase the premiums and sum insured in relation to inflation. Otherwise, entering new insurance policies should be done about every five years. If you, as a young married, took out a $1M whole-of-life you would probably be looking at taking out a policy of, say, $5000 in five years. You wouldn't need to take out another $1M.

[pmccarthy]

I used to take out an assurance policy every year 50 years ago. The subs were deductible and payout was tax exempt, that is the only reason it made sense. Then they changed the tax rules and these policies disappeared.

[BrendAn]

I am waiting on another quote for aircraft cover which includes 30k hull cover and 250k pilot death benefit.  I have a feeling it's going to be costly though.

[BrendAn]

18 hours ago, old man emu said:

That example is not really an assurance policy because it does not specify the sum to be paid when the event occurs, although without looking into one, I suppose the fund would have to make some promise. If you really want to prepare for your funeral, I suggest purchasing your plot now, and keeping the cemetery informed of your contact details. Then you can buy your coffin or casket and store it until needed. I have often considered making my own. It's not beyond the ability of the average DIYer - probably easier than making a chest of drawers. Then you put a clause in your will stating that after your debts and funeral expenses have been paid, the family can fight over what is left.

 

Just to clear things up. With an assurance policy, the assurance company enters into a contract with you to pay a nominated amount of money when  an event takes place. Look at the once popular Endowment policy. The agreement there was that the assurance company would pay you a certain amount of money after an agree time (set by law at a minimum 10 years) if you regularly paid a set amount (premium). Say the agreement was for $10,000 at the end of ten years. You would pay $1000 per year. If however you were knocked off the perch at five and three-quarters years, the assurance company agreed to pay the full $10,000 and cop the loss. If the policy ran the 10 years, then the assurance company had your money to cover payouts to other policyholders.

 

Whole-of-life assurance policies generally only pay out on death, or total and permanent disability, so tend to have slightly cheaper premiums than Endowment policies. And they usually pay you out, dead or alive, if you reach and advanced age, like about 85 years.

 

However, with a insurance policy the assurance company enters into a contract with you to pay a nominated amount of money if an event takes place. If the event happens you win. If not, yu lose. Insurance policies usually only have a life of 12 months, so you have to renegotiate them annually. Sometimes an insurance policy can be for a shorter term - such as crop insurance, it Public Liability insurance for a one-day event.

 

Now, let's not now wander down the sidetrack of immoral practices insurance companies engage in to break the contract, but keep you money. 

 

The moral of the story is that, if you want to provide for your family in the event of your death, buy an assurance policy. And see if you can get one that allows YOU to increase the premiums and sum insured in relation to inflation. Otherwise, entering new insurance policies should be done about every five years. If you, as a young married, took out a $1M whole-of-life you would probably be looking at taking out a policy of, say, $5000 in five years. You wouldn't need to take out another $1M.

Well I don't need a coffin because I want to be cremated and  I have had a life insurance policy for years. I have no problem with it. I just need to cover flying although if I stick to thruster 88s rules which I will anyway then I should never need flying cover unless I crashed because of a medical issue but at 57 I would hope I get a few years in before that. These life assurance policy's are new to me. Never heard of them before.

[facthunter]

I only insured the Aircraft Itself for On the gound situations but covered third party .  It saved a lot of trouble if you had plenty of tailwheel time. Nev

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, BrendAn said:

These life assurance policy's are new to me. Never heard of them before.

What I described as "assurance" policies were the very original. I'd bet that, depending on your age, either your parents or earlier ancestors from the 20th Century used to have their shilling ready each week when the man from the AMP came to collect the premium. 

 

I would hazard a guess that the word "assurance" has dropped out of use due to the influence of American English on Anglo-Australian English. The Americans seem to use the word "insurance" to cover the two different ways of preparing to deal with future events.

 

3 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

The subs were deductible and payout was tax exempt, that is the only reason it made sense. Then they changed the tax rules and these policies disappeared.

Ah Ha! That would explain why it is now that "endowment assurance" policies are gone. The ATO looked upon them as a wealth-through-investment creation method since that type of policy paid "bonuses" base on the profit of the company. At the end of the term, you had paid in the "sum assured" in installments, from your already taxed money, but the bonuses were the result of the financial management of the company. You could liken it to buying a certain number of shares by instalments, but getting the full annual dividend based on the number of shares your premium bought. Each year the bonus went to buying a share or two more so that at the end of the term, you owned what you said you would buy plus some more. When you "sold" those shares it was a sort of Capital Gain.

 

Is that right, Jerry?