life insurance for aviators

[skippydiesel]

Be "assured" if you live, death will surely follow.

 

As some have stated "Assurance Scheme's" were/are a way of saving/investing for a likely/certain event - all to often the investment did not occur, nor the return of premiums + in full/at all, when the claim was made. At best they are a way of helping people who have difficulty planning/saving,  at worst, they are a scam.

 

Insurance is a way of having sufficient funds ($$) to cover the costs associated with an unplanned/possible future event  eg car/aircraft crash.

 

If you are extraordinarily wealth, you probably don't need insurance, as you will have sufficient dosh to:

• A. employ the best lawyers, to avoid paying a claim against you
• B. sufficient ill gotten gains, to pay off any successful claim.
• NSW Gov. (being ridiculously wealthy) had/has a "managed fund" which pays out, to successful claims against the Gov

 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

15 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Be "assured" if you live, death will surely follow.

 

As some have stated "Assurance Scheme's" were/are a way of saving/investing for a likely/certain event - all to often the investment did not occur, nor the return of premiums + in full/at all, when the claim was made. At best they are a way of helping people who have difficulty planning/saving,  at worst, they are a scam.

 

Insurance is a way of having sufficient funds ($$) to cover the costs associated with an unplanned/possible future event  eg car/aircraft crash.

What I'm reading about on this and other posts is certainly nothing like what I experienced, so I must have been one of the lucky ones who picked the right company and finished up with the money. So my advice is as always. 1 Do your research and talk to several suppliers about your needs. 2. Read what they give you enough times that you understand every clause. 3 Don't like that, start the process again.

 

15 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

If you are extraordinarily wealth, you probably don't need insurance, as you will have sufficient dosh to:

• A. employ the best lawyers, to avoid paying a claim against you
• B. sufficient ill gotten gains, to pay off any successful claim.
• NSW Gov. (being ridiculously wealthy) had/has a "managed fund" which pays out, to successful claims against the Gov

I think you've crossed over into Public Liability here where most people flying need at least $10 million PL cover, and on an RPT Airport probably $50 million. This also seems to be poorly understood because it's quickly swept under the carpet every time we have a discussion. This could be when someone sells an aircraft and in preparing it for sale took an aileron linkage off, greased it pushed the bot in then got an urgent call for something, forgot all about it and the aicraft crashes when the new owner is on the way home, or it could be you got lost and ran out of fuel and screwed up the forced landing.

[old man emu]

Public Liability insurance  is a means of making certain that if a person is injured, or suffers property damage because you were not careful in what you were doing, then the person can have the costs of recovery from injury or repair of damage paid for, without your having to find the money from your own assets. 

 

Again, insurance is a bet. You bet that a thing will happen, the bookie bests that it will not. As you can see, its a triumph for the bookies, because most things we fear never happen. The reason that premiums for insurance are so high is that when an event does happen, the cost to fix it nowadays is really high. The crunch here is determining if you had a duty of care to the injured party, especially if the Silks get involved in sorting things out.

 

Assurance has a bit of a bet in it. The bookie is betting that you will live long enough to pay the amount of the wager. In other words, if you insure your life for $1M, the bookie (actuary) will look at your age and compare it to statistics which estimate how much longer a person at that age will live, and set a premium to make sure that after that many years, there is money in the pot to pay $1M. If you cark it three weeks after entering the contract, then the bookie loses. While you are paying your premium each year, it is going into a pool of funds so that a claim arising from the early death of another policy-holder can be paid. Because the bookie is holding a lot of unused money, it can be invested and the interest added to the pool.

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

What I'm reading about on this and other posts is certainly nothing like what I experienced, so I must have been one of the lucky ones who picked the right company and finished up with the money. So my advice is as always. 1 Do your research and talk to several suppliers about your needs. 2. Read what they give you enough times that you understand every clause. 3 Don't like that, start the process again.

 

I think you've crossed over into Public Liability here where most people flying need at least $10 million PL cover, and on an RPT Airport probably $50 million. This also seems to be poorly understood because it's quickly swept under the carpet every time we have a discussion. This could be when someone sells an aircraft and in preparing it for sale took an aileron linkage off, greased it pushed the bot in then got an urgent call for something, forgot all about it and the aicraft crashes when the new owner is on the way home, or it could be you got lost and ran out of fuel and screwed up the forced landing.

raaus is 20 million and up to 250k for a passenger

[danny_galaga]

Pretty sure life INSURANCE came first. Quite a noble act, a Scottish priest who was tired of seeing newly widowed women kicked to the curb when their husbands died suddenly...

[danny_galaga]

https://www.legacygr.com/2017/06/06/from-art-form-to-science-the-beginnings-of-modern-insurance/

 

Started off as only widows of clergy, but still a good start 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by danny_galaga

[old man emu]

Notice that  the company, Legacy Trust,  is from Michigan USA. Hence they use "insurance" to describe what is actually "assurance". 

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, turboplanner said:

What I'm reading about on this and other posts is certainly nothing like what I experienced, so I must have been one of the lucky ones who picked the right company and finished up with the money. So my advice is as always. 1 Do your research and talk to several suppliers about your needs. 2. Read what they give you enough times that you understand every clause. 3 Don't like that, start the process again.

 

I think you've crossed over into Public Liability here where most people flying need at least $10 million PL cover, and on an RPT Airport probably $50 million. This also seems to be poorly understood because it's quickly swept under the carpet every time we have a discussion. This could be when someone sells an aircraft and in preparing it for sale took an aileron linkage off, greased it pushed the bot in then got an urgent call for something, forgot all about it and the aicraft crashes when the new owner is on the way home, or it could be you got lost and ran out of fuel and screwed up the forced landing.

I am talking about insurance in general, as a concept. Public Liability is but one out of many areas that a person/organisation can take out insurance cover against. It is usually packaged with (may cover) other risks eg fire/theft/robbery/accident.

 

We, the Australian "proletariat" have/are being brainwash by American trends and the failure of our Governments to come up with a better way of determining  appropriate compensation for loss/injury,than clogging up the legal system with adversarial games, where the only consistent winners are the legal profession..

[turboplanner]

9 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

I am talking about insurance in general, as a concept. Public Liability is but one out of many areas that a person/organisation can take out insurance cover against. It is usually packaged with (may cover) other risks eg fire/theft/robbery/accident.

Well this thread was about Life Insurance but the waters are well and truly muddied now with a whole lot of other subjects; not good for someone with a life insuance issue to be able to see instantly which way to go, so I'd recommend the OP go to Insurance specialists to solve the problem.

9 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

We, the Australian "proletariat" have/are being brainwash by American trends and the failure of our Governments to come up with a better way of determining  appropriate compensation for loss/injury,than clogging up the legal system with adversarial games, where the only consistent winners are the legal profession..

Australia's Public Liability origin came from Scotland.

 

I think what you may be talking about is Product Liability which started in the US and caused Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft, Grumman to stop building new light aircraft for some years.

 

Product Liability is where a person can sue a manufacturer for a perceived design fault, and from memory started with Ralph Nader's obsession with the Chevrolet Corvette's rear suspension, which followed a few rollovers, then the Ford Pinto's rear mounted fuel tank cracking when rear-ended, releasing gasoline which caught fire and killed people several times. In the beginning it was so broad that the plaintiff only had to prove there was a better way of designing the product. I first came across it studying a Freightliner crash where a husband and wife had disconnected a trailer and were travelling home bobtail (Tractor only). The driver lost control on the wet road and slid across sideways hitting a power pole which crushed the LHS fuel tank and causing a fatality in the fire. The plaintiff claimed that if the fuel tank had been between the chassis rails instead of outside them, the fatality would not have occurred. From memory the Judge awarded the plaintiff $10 million with a punitive fine on Freightliner of $10 million. The fact that the space between the chassis rails is required by the prop shaft was not raised. 

In a second case a gas tanker rolled over, cracked and exploded. The lawyers for the plaintiffs came up with a tank design which had a smaller diameter over the fifth wheel allowing the main barrel to be lower ahead of the rear axles, and successfully argued that the lower net centre of gravity would have prevented the crash. No one pointed out that the smaller volume would have made the semi trailer non-viable, and also created a potential cracking point. Again, the awards were multi-million dollar compensation and pay out. 

The aircraft industry had been promoting their light aircraft as just as easy to fly as a car and faster, and mass sales had taken off. Ads showed the family of two adults in the front and two kids in the back, and people bought, and people died. The minds of Americans were fresh with the worldwide reactions to the deaths of Buddy Holly, The Big Bopper and Ritchie Valens, taken up in a Bonanza straight into a snowstorm above the airport by a pilot woefully short on hours, Patsy Cline, Hawkshaw Hawkins and Cowboy Copas, flown into a cliff by a person who should never have been at the controls,  Jim Reeves and Dean Manuel, his pianist where Jim had believed the advertising, bought a Beechcraft Debonair, had a few lessons in it and started flying around for his business. One hot day there were forecast storms over Nashville, but he had to be back there for a comitment so he arrived just as a rainstorm hit, didn't turn round and both were killed.  And that was just the leading edge toll of the Country Music scene. Most industries could tell a similar story, so it was no surprise that the Product Liability business would target light aircraft.

The automotive industry, a lot bigger, with a lot more to lose fought back and as the Corvair cases began to dry up, the litigators seized on The Chevy Blazer fuel tank where there were a few cases of fatal fires. A video of a spectacular blaze was shown to the public, so GM hired an investigative team to find the vehicle and analyse it. The team eventually found it halfway across the country from where the alleged "accident" occurred, in a wreckers yard. They were able to photograph the spray nozzles and the igniters and other indicators showing that the fire was staged, and that cooled that one for a while, but the solution by the industry was to establish industry standards which protected them.

These came to Australia in the form of Australian Design Rules which prevented Corvair, Pinto type cases which would have sent Australian manufacterers broke. The upside of this for car consumers in both the US and Australia was far safer cars, albeit at a far higher price, but our road tolls which are about a quarter of the level in the early 1970's are due to things like seat belts, collapsible steering columns, frangible front ends laminated windscreens, door intrusion rails, and airbags adding to the big percentage drop with alcohol control.

 

Back to your point, this didn't stop Product Liability coming to Australia and it was put into law here.

However, the first case has to go through the cost of taking it through the High Court and so far no one has had the money to do it.

 

So it's correct to say Product Liability came to Australia from the United States.

 

 

 

[spacesailor]

In the UK .Babies could not be insured before they had their 1st birthday.  ( 1960 )

We had to take out an endowment policy,  for that twelve month, then it converted to a

Iifepolicy,  ( Prudential insurance) .

Which means the Insurance got a free premium . As we had to pay our monthly shilling .

spacesailor

 

[danny_galaga]

7 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

In the UK .Babies could not be insured before they had their 1st birthday.  ( 1960 )

We had to take out an endowment policy,  for that twelve month, then it converted to a

Iifepolicy,  ( Prudential insurance) .

Which means the Insurance got a free premium . As we had to pay our monthly shilling .

spacesailor

 

Not to sound heartless, but why would you need to insure a baby? Is it for injury/disease hospital costs etc?

[spacesailor]

That was the only consideration. 

The one shilling was a very cheap insurance,  for a funeral cost, of the 60's .

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

A gallon of Petrol was one shilling and nine pence  in the 50's  Nev.

[skippydiesel]

In many ways Product Liability is a good thing, in that it strongly encourages (forces) manufacturers to consider the safety of the consumer BUT as will all things there is a down side -

 

Car Systems - Cars today have all sort of systems to help reduce the chance of the driver making an error eg anti (lock) skid brakes, lane change warning, proximity warning/auto braking,  automatic head lamps/windscreen wipers and  when all else fails body crumple zones . Then there are the features to make life easier for the driver - power steering, auto transmission, direction signal light (Optional use) noise cancelling, hands fee phone, multi channel radios, etc. (Speed cameras should be in there somewhere).

 

I call this "Dumbing Down" - not that I wish to return to hand signals, non powers brakes , etc etc

 

I stand to be corrected, despite all these wonderful innovations, we still seem to be having car accidents, at a not too dissimilar rate, as a percentage of driver numbers WHY? My guess we have failed to address the root cause of the problem, driver skill.

 

I guess this will be fixed when we substitute a robot for the driver - no doubt your insurance premium will rise precipitously, if you opt to drive yourself🤣.

[spacesailor]

I found a problem with our current driver training & testing programs .

Far too much emphasis on bureaucracy,  but only a little on the learner's  " physical skills " .

Should a motorcycle rider get a test pass after he's fallen off the bike twice .(  on his test )

He got 100 % in his written , so he passed.

Useless at ' clutch, gear change .& putting foot out before he fell too far to correct that  mistake. 

spacesailor

[Area-51]

On 07/05/2023 at 11:21 AM, facthunter said:

I only insured the Aircraft Itself for On the gound situations but covered third party .  It saved a lot of trouble if you had plenty of tailwheel time. Nev

Well that makes sense; "ground cover" only, for when the aircraft is on thr ground... other than a mid-air collision, or hitting a tree or power lines, what could possibly go wrong while flying?? 🤷🏼‍♂️... and to roll it up in a ball and a ground loop the aircraft needs to be "on the ground"!! 🤷🏼‍♂️😊😂😂😂... They must pay 👍

[Area-51]

7 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

In many ways Product Liability is a good thing, in that it strongly encourages (forces) manufacturers to consider the safety of the consumer BUT as will all things there is a down side -

 

Car Systems - Cars today have all sort of systems to help reduce the chance of the driver making an error eg anti (lock) skid brakes, lane change warning, proximity warning/auto braking,  automatic head lamps/windscreen wipers and  when all else fails body crumple zones . Then there are the features to make life easier for the driver - power steering, auto transmission, direction signal light (Optional use) noise cancelling, hands fee phone, multi channel radios, etc. (Speed cameras should be in there somewhere).

 

I call this "Dumbing Down" - not that I wish to return to hand signals, non powers brakes , etc etc

 

I stand to be corrected, despite all these wonderful innovations, we still seem to be having car accidents, at a not too dissimilar rate, as a percentage of driver numbers WHY? My guess we have failed to address the root cause of the problem, driver skill.

 

I guess this will be fixed when we substitute a robot for the driver - no doubt your insurance premium will rise precipitously, if you opt to drive yourself🤣.

Today I drove a Kia Carnival 1000km... it was great... Just select the desired cruise speed, and steer; the car did everything else... it slowed down and followed the car in front to final halt... it told me to stop and buy it a coffee!! It told me when another car was too close to it... it told me the key was in the ignition and the door was open, fearing abandonment... it told me my seatbelt was undone... it prevented me from driving without hands... it steered itself down the highway... It constantly told me what speed to drive... The Kia left me feeling very valued, cared for, and most of all important... I did not have to think of anything at all 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Bruce Tuncks]

I once looked into the industry and you can too by putting yourself in the role of insurance provider... There are 3 big things that need to be paid out , these are claims, overheads and profits. If they are equal, it means that given average luck, you can expect 1/3 of your premiums back as payouts.

At the club I was in, this was about right....  we made about $20,000 of claims per year and paid about $50,000 premiums. We never had an argument from the insurance company.

Personally, I reckon its a better strategy to not be insured and to fly safely. I never had the nerve to suggest this at the club however, just because some fool might turn a young doctor into a quadriplegic.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I hasten to add that this is just a morbid imagining thing....  Since 1968, when I joined, we have never hurt anybody at Gawler. The insurance company has made , at $30,000pa over 50 years, about $1.5 million profit.

It's all about making money from people's morbid worries. 

[turboplanner]

Just now, Bruce Tuncks said:

I hasten to add that this is just a morbid imagining thing....  Since 1968, when I joined, we have never hurt anybody at Gawler. The insurance company has made , at $30,000pa over 50 years, about $1.5 million profit.

It's all about making money from people's morbid worries. 

What type of Insurance was this?

 

[BrendAn]

I received another quote yesterday.

Comprehensive cover which includes ground handling and a 250k pilot cover plus 30k hull cover is $2100 P/a.  I don't think that is too bad.  

[Area-51]

2 hours ago, BrendAn said:

I received another quote yesterday.

Comprehensive cover which includes ground handling and a 250k pilot cover plus 30k hull cover is $2100 P/a.  I don't think that is too bad.  

Thats a decent quote

[BirdDog]

My life insurance covers me for flying in my aircraft.

I actually have it stated - less than 100 hours annually, and I don't get anywhere near that.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

1 minute ago, BirdDog said:

My life insurance covers me for flying in my aircraft.

I actually have it stated - less than 100 hours annually, and I don't get anywhere near that.

 

 

Doesn't make aviaton  sense -more hours, usually results in higher skill, lower risk - they need to talk to their actuary

[BirdDog]

I think they look at it in a way that.... every hour in the air adds to the chances of an incident!  But I see your point.