Fuel Tax

[skippydiesel]

Has anyone tried to claim back the  road tax (47.7%) component of their fuel cost?

 

Could be urban myth but I understand that if the fuel is to be used for an off (public) road purpose, the road tax can be claimed back.

Edited May 11, 2023 by skippydiesel

[Carbon Canary]

I think you need to be a registered primary producer (farmer) or a mining company to be able to get the rebate.

[turboplanner]

45 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Has anyone tried to claim back the  road tax (47.7%) component of their fuel cost?

 

Could be urban myth but I understand that if the fuel is to be used for an off (public) road purpose, the road tax can be claimed back.

From memory that was taken away around the mid 1990s

 

You needed an ABN.

Edited May 12, 2023 by turboplanner

[Carbon Canary]

Yeah, when you think about it, there would be a lot of lawnmowers and speedboats out there that suddenly had very high fuel consumption !

[spacesailor]

But a lot of those ' lawn mowers ' are ABN ! OLD but NEW BUSINESSES.  SUPLIMENTING  THEIR RETIREMENT.  P,P,P,P ,!

Oops caps, ( do I really need to rewrite it all ).. LoL

And do the ' emergency services get Anything . '  Not the police ' they're getting $millions out of us motorists .

Are those fines attracting "  tax on revenue " .

spacesailor

 

[old man emu]

59 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

'  Not the police ' they're getting $millions out of us motorists .

FFS Skippy get over it will you?

 

How many times do you have to be told that when an constable issues a person with an infringement notice it provided the person with basically two choices - have the matter heard and determined by a Court, or, of for many, many reasons, the person decides not to take that path, then they can pay to the State Treasury a set amount as indicated on the notice. That money goes into the Treasury coffers to build the State's disposable income. From that income money is allocated to provide the services we demand from  from the State Government. 

Part of the set fine for an offence might go to buying a lifesaving piece of equipment for a hospital, or for a book for a kid in kindergarten to learn to read with. Yes, some of that money from traffic fines finances policing, but it also finances a host of other government-run activities, and benefits, like energy bill rebates and free travel for pensioners of all types.

 

I will admit that the motorist has always been viewed by Treasurers as a milch cow to have its teats pulled until they bleed. It is unfair that a thief can enter your house steal and ransack and cop a wrap on the wrist from a Court, but a driver trying to operate a vehicle in an environment of overwhelming visual and physical inputs can have hundreds of dollars extracted from them for say, not realising that it was 3:50 pm and that the school zone speed limit on an otherwise 80 kph length of public street was still in force, despite that by that time little Johnny and Mary were either at home, or at the local shopping center with Mum.

[Thruster88]

Farming, Fishing and Mining are eligible to claim back the fuel excise. Seems reasonable since that tax is supposed to be only used for roadworks. Avgas and Jet-A have a very low excise.

 

 

Excise duty rates for fuel and petroleum products

WWW.ATO.GOV.AU

---

Fuel and petroleum products and the excise duty rates that apply to them.

 

[onetrack]

Be very careful about trying to claim back this fuel excise - because even if you get a ruling from the ATO that you can claim it back, the ATO can reverse its decision years down the track, and insist you weren't entitled to the rebate, and any rebates must all be repaid.

My elder brother ran an operation loading iron ore into ships from storage sheds on the wharf with big front end loaders. He was advised by the ATO that he was entitled to claim the fuel rebate.

 

7 years later, the ATO sent him a letter and told him they'd made a mistake in applying the rebate, and he had to repay 7 years of fuel rebate that he wasn't entitled to claim - around $800,000 (these were big front end loaders).

The ATO simply stated that they had reviewed his position and decided that his work was not part of any "mining operations" as described in the Act.

 

He fought them relentlessly through every avenue available to him, ending up in the Administrative Appeals Tribunal - spending $300,000 on legal advice in the process. The AAT simply rubber-stamped the ATO's decision and he had to repay the $800,000. This bankrupted him.

 

There is no ability to reverse an ATO decision. Even if you present a ruling saying you were told a certain interpretation applied to the relevant Act, the ATO will simply say the person who gave you the ruling made an error in interpreting the relevant Act.

The ATO are a law unto themselves, and there is no fairness in any of their decision-making. Tribunals rubber stamp the ATO's decisions, because the Tribunals are run by senior public servants.

 

I fail to understand how the ATO can claim money back after 7 years, when most tax records are only generally required to be kept for 5 years.

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by onetrack

[facthunter]

You can dispute the ATO's decision(s). I've won 3 times but I don't see them as a friend . I thought the period to keep records was 7 years. Nev

[onetrack]

You won't win against the ATO if they are intent on winning. Small amounts, you may win - but in the brothers case, we reckoned the ATO had reversed their rebate opinion for possibly another 50 or 100 companies, and they were intent on winning his case, as it then set the precedent to win against all the other companies, as regards the reversing of their interpretation of the rebate conditions.

[facthunter]

The LAW must count in there somewhere or the game stinks. I don't recommend challenging the ATO the CASA or the government or many similar bodies  as they have (as they will tell you) DEEPER pockets than you and can be vindictive.  Nev

[onetrack]

As I said, the ATO are a law unto themselves, same as CASA. There is no accountability, fairness or justice when you are faced with an adverse administrative decision, from these huge Govt organisations.

[facthunter]

They DO respond to pressure by gov't to go hard on returns. Running short staffed is usual also in these circumstances. How can you commit a crime when yesterday it wasn't and it happened when a different interpretation was in force and confirmed by the relevant body? it's not the job of the ATO to bankrupt a normal business that tried to do the right thing.  Nev

[spacesailor]

The ATO is the Only place were you Are guilty,  until You Prove you are Innocent ! .

And they bankrupt people because they Can , & to put the fear into all of us .

" Toongabbie spares "  Not allowed to trade out of monetary shortage ,due to  creditor's late payments. 

spacesailor

 

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, Carbon Canary said:

Yeah, when you think about it, there would be a lot of lawnmowers and speedboats out there that suddenly had very high fuel consumption !

If you want to lodge a claim - recepts, & records of consumption , etc would be required. I am sure there are farmers/miners/fishers/etc  who could abuse the system but the penalties are usually savage for those caught out - ie not worth the risk.

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, old man emu said:

FFS Skippy get over it will you?

 

How many times do you have to be told that when an constable issues a person with an infringement notice it provided the person with basically two choices - have the matter heard and determined by a Court, or, of for many, many reasons, the person decides not to take that path, then they can pay to the State Treasury a set amount as indicated on the notice. That money goes into the Treasury coffers to build the State's disposable income. From that income money is allocated to provide the services we demand from  from the State Government. 

Part of the set fine for an offence might go to buying a lifesaving piece of equipment for a hospital, or for a book for a kid in kindergarten to learn to read with. Yes, some of that money from traffic fines finances policing, but it also finances a host of other government-run activities, and benefits, like energy bill rebates and free travel for pensioners of all types.

 

I will admit that the motorist has always been viewed by Treasurers as a milch cow to have its teats pulled until they bleed. It is unfair that a thief can enter your house steal and ransack and cop a wrap on the wrist from a Court, but a driver trying to operate a vehicle in an environment of overwhelming visual and physical inputs can have hundreds of dollars extracted from them for say, not realising that it was 3:50 pm and that the school zone speed limit on an otherwise 80 kph length of public street was still in force, despite that by that time little Johnny and Mary were either at home, or at the local shopping center with Mum.

OME -Quite the rant -  I have no idea who, what, you are referring too - please explain.

[onetrack]

He meant to reply to Spacey, Skippy.

[spacesailor]

SO 

spacesailor , will reply ! .

In a nice world , a constable could or should have the discretion to issue a warning. 

Hopefully I am right .

 

 

But from my standpoint ' at the receiving end ' of any infringement! ,

0.05 seconds sounds like a Very small infringement 

BUT

As I am unable to engage a ' Barrister or two ' it makes the Law & the constabulary.

Not my Law but the Law for the Elites of society. 

I am Not alone in this perception of how Austraia's Law has progressed since the ' Rum Rebellion ' .

Like people have said , $ 500 from a PPPENSION is a big hit , that doesn't affect the wealthy end of town .

GST doesn't affect someone who can write off food , on a '  entertainment taxbreak ' , the rich 1% pay less tax , than the poorer 90% .

And I feel Victimised.  And  on my way to the "  Arthur Butler Memorial " fly in , I have to run the gauntlet of ' filling copper's pockets .

" Such is life " .

spacesailor

 PS. Very sorry for my rant, I'm not aiming at anybody in particular. 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by spacesailor
ps added

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

He meant to reply to Spacey, Skippy.

Yeah. Sorry Skippy.

 

33 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

a constable could or should have the discretion to issue a warning. 

Does have, but the naive young constable is lead astray by ignorant seniors.

 

34 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

$ 500 from a PPPENSION is a big hit ,

I agree, I did say that governments treat motorists as financial milch cows and at the same time flog people who do harm to others with cottonwool whips.

[turboplanner]

8 hours ago, spacesailor said:

SO 

spacesailor , will reply ! .

In a nice world , a constable could or should have the discretion to issue a warning. 

Hopefully I am right .

 

 

But from my standpoint ' at the receiving end ' of any infringement! ,

0.05 seconds sounds like a Very small infringement 

BUT

As I am unable to engage a ' Barrister or two ' it makes the Law & the constabulary.

Not my Law but the Law for the Elites of society. 

I am Not alone in this perception of how Austraia's Law has progressed since the ' Rum Rebellion ' .

Like people have said , $ 500 from a PPPENSION is a big hit , that doesn't affect the wealthy end of town .

GST doesn't affect someone who can write off food , on a '  entertainment taxbreak ' , the rich 1% pay less tax , than the poorer 90% .

And I feel Victimised.  And  on my way to the "  Arthur Butler Memorial " fly in , I have to run the gauntlet of ' filling copper's pockets .

" Such is life " .

spacesailor

 PS. Very sorry for my rant, I'm not aiming at anybody in particular. 

 

Probably better to keep those thoughts to yourself.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Probably better to keep those thoughts to yourself.

No! I fully agree with Spacey on that.

 

Imagine this situation. You approach a set of traffic lights and the "yellow" has been showing for a while. You do what everyone else does and keep going, only to have the "red" show as you are crossing the stop line. The next thing, you hear the "whoop whoop" behind you. Immediately fear grips you. The constable approaches you and your first words are, "I know. I know" . From here things can go two ways. The constable gives you a ticket and from then on you regale all and sundry about how the bloody copper booked you for a split second of red.

 

Or, the constable explains to you that actually it is an offence to run a yellow and because you did, you ended up running the red. The constable advises you that correct driving practice is to slow as you approach a yellow and prepare to stop, providing that by doing so, the idiot sitting on your tail won't run up it. The constable then bids you "Good day" and departs. 

 

What are you going to do the next time and the time after that when you approach a yellow that has been showing for a while? I'd say that the constable has succeeded in improving road safety, one step at a time. 

[turboplanner]

25 minutes ago, old man emu said:

No! I fully agree with Spacey on that.

 

Imagine this situation. You approach a set of traffic lights and the "yellow" has been showing for a while. You do what everyone else does and keep going, only to have the "red" show as you are crossing the stop line. The next thing, you hear the "whoop whoop" behind you. Immediately fear grips you. The constable approaches you and your first words are, "I know. I know" . From here things can go two ways. The constable gives you a ticket and from then on you regale all and sundry about how the bloody copper booked you for a split second of red.

 

Or, the constable explains to you that actually it is an offence to run a yellow and because you did, you ended up running the red. The constable advises you that correct driving practice is to slow as you approach a yellow and prepare to stop, providing that by doing so, the idiot sitting on your tail won't run up it. The constable then bids you "Good day" and departs. 

 

What are you going to do the next time and the time after that when you approach a yellow that has been showing for a while? I'd say that the constable has succeeded in improving road safety, one step at a time. 

If it was confined to that I wouldn't have a problem; "filling coppers pockets is another matter"

I have a friend on FB who has to put up with that sort of comment every day but he and his family not only have to put up with that sort of commentary, but the regular loss and injury of workmates. He puts up the thin blue line badge whenever there is a death, and it's up way too many times a year for his workmates who certainly don't go around filling their pockets.

[skippydiesel]

Disclaimer:  No academic qualifications/knowledge -

 

Observation; Police forces, around the Globe, are an arm of Government, much more so than the Military (some countries one in the same).

Their job is to enforce the Governments rule of Law. 

The Police, like the military, abdicate their right to act on their personal morality/ethics (independent judgement), in favour of the Law. 

Ipso facto - do not expect a policeperson to exercise judgement.

 

[spacesailor]

I probably have not made it clear enough. 

I did Not run a RED Or AMBER  light!.

I Was stopped  on the Green light. ( heavy traffic & no were to go ahead ).

As I started to cross ' slowly ' ( giving time for traffic to clear ahead ) . That light, THEN turned AMBER. 

As I had only just got the AMBER,  I expected to clear  the intersection before the Red ) .

As I reached the far side of the road ( front wheels over the other side line ).

I was busted for 0.05 of a second ! ,( rear end Not over the line ) .

So now it's " floor it ", if late !.

Or " slam on the brakes " & to hell with the people behind ,( who think They could make it ) .

90% speedo watching,  is Not a good driving habit!.

spacesailoe

 

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I feel for you Spacesailer - another observation (don't yawn!) ;

 

We have a Judiciary/Court which is supposed to be independent of Government.

The Judiciary, being independent, is supposed to apply the Law with consideration to the facts/circumstance (not political grandstanding, revenue raising, etc).

Its a founding principal of (most) Democracies that Court hearings be public - specifically so that the public can see that the actions of the court are fair & reasonable.

The Gov. as the Law maker, is not always happy with this democratic approach;

Citing societal expectations, etc the Gov. will restrict the independence of the Court by making laws requiring mandatory sentencing, for certain transgressions and guilty by way of non compliance (your crime). ie the Court has little or no discretion (independence) in these areas.

In matters where the Gov may be/is embarrassed, similar overreach is enacted, the excuse being State security is at risk (????). In these cases the hearing will be conducted in whole, or part, in secret (in camera) (shades of Totalitarian States?)

 

So much for Democracy.

 

Your "crime" is one of non compliance with a road rule - you are without doubt guilty, without trial (what happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"?) 

If you feel strongly enough about it you may plead your case with the court - you are unlikely to be exonerated (remember you are guilty) but may have a reduction in the penalty eg no financial penalty, mandatory (conduct) points retained.

 

Road rules are important for all road users safety BUT we have a plethora of rules that have little if anything to do with safety and many that are about safety but do not attract much attention (revenue?).

 

Most of us can identify with your situation (probably been there) and know that you are the victim of circumstance, not a perpetrator of unsafe driving behaviour.

The Law is about safety. Your actions were not (in the circumstances described) unsafe however  you broke the Law (probably something along the lines of running a red light/cuing across an intersection)

The Police (now joined by a host of pseudo police) do not have the luxury of exercising judgement and may face censure if found to be doing so.

 

Despite your reasonable appeals/protestations, you have been booked!

 

On reflection,  its a wonder to me, that you, a danger to society, are allowed to wonder the streets & express your displeasure in/on a public Forum 😀