Emergency Engine Start Devises

[skippydiesel]

I would like to get feedback from Forum members who use this sort of device.

 

• Does it meet your expectations?
• What are your expectations?
• Would you recommend your device to an aspiring purchaser?
• What make & model do you have?

 

 

[spacesailor]

When I started! ,

ALL CARS had the ' winder-key ' through the " bumper " , ( staring-handle ) to start the motor whenever the battery power was low .

Most aircraft could be ' hand- started ' , 

SO ! What is needed now ?, perhaps a , " super-sized " jump-starter !.

spacesailor

 

[pluessy]

I have one of these jump-starters, have used it a few times now on V-twin mowers. Would start a Jab or Rotax engine as well.

https://www.jaycar.com.au/450a-li-po-jump-starter-and-powerbank/p/MB3757

The unit is just under 0.5kg.

[skippydiesel]

10 hours ago, spacesailor said:

When I started! ,

ALL CARS had the ' winder-key ' through the " bumper " , ( staring-handle ) to start the motor whenever the battery power was low .

Most aircraft could be ' hand- started ' , 

SO ! What is needed now ?, perhaps a , " super-sized " jump-starter !.

spacesailor

 

Without significant modification (if at all) Rotax geared engines can not be "hand propped". You just cant get the engine turning fast enough to start. In a car you can (if on a slope or willing helpers) role/push start through the gear box (manuals only)

 

In large part this is why I am intersted in a back up power supply. They promise to be light/small enough to carry for away trips, should a weak/drained start battery threaten to maroon me. 

 

Some of them offer several additional features where electrical power would be helpful:

• Phone charging
• Running small appliances
• Torch/strobe

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by skippydiesel

[Thruster88]

I bought this one 

Jump Starter 2000A Portable 12 Volt Car battery Heavy duty high booster Rooboost

WWW.EBAY.COM.AU

---

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Jump Starter 2000A Portable 12 Volt Car battery Heavy duty high booster Rooboost at the best online prices at eBay!

about a year ago. I thought they were a bit of a joke with the size of cables. First job was to start the 7 litre Cat tractor that would barely turn over, started like it had new batteries. Works well as a power bank for charging phones. 

 

[Neil_S]

Hi Skippy,

 

I have had the ITECH2000A 2000 AMP PORTABLE LITHIUM JUMP STARTER from iTechworld for a few years.

Has been used to jump start my Savannah, a friend's Savannah, and a couple of cars. I take it with me in the plane any time I'm going to land at another airfield. (Same with my rechargeable air pump bought from Aldi years ago).

It also has torch and every connector under the sun for charging phones, running small fridge etc

 

Cheers,

Neil

 

PS Just noticed it's currently down to $175 in an EOFYS

Edited June 23, 2023 by Neil_S

[facthunter]

IF it's got a lot of "KICK" in it  may damage the normal starter engagement sprag clutch and perhaps the flywheel bolts of a Jabiru. Nev

[onetrack]

Delco-Remy have introduced their "electrical soft-start" starters for heavy equipment - I wonder why this technology hasn't been introduced into the smaller starters, such as aircraft engines?

 

https://www.delcoremy.com/starters/starter-features/electrical-soft-start

[kasper]

3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Without significant modification (if at all) Rotax geared engines can not be "hand propped". You just cant get the engine turning fast enough to start. In a car you can (if on a slope or willing helpers) role/push start through the gear box (manuals only)

 

In large part this is why I am intersted in a back up power supply. They promise to be light/small enough to carry for away trips, should a weak/drained start battery threaten to maroon me. 

 

Some of them offer several additional features where electrical power would be helpful:

• Phone charging
• Running small appliances
• Torch/strobe

 

 

Utter rubbish.  All rotax two stokes I have flown can be safely hand propped- breaker points or cdi - both. 
 

think about it - you are actually spinning the engine 2-3 times your prop speed making it easier 

 

and on the four strokes I have successfully hand propped both the 80 and 100hp 912

 

my main concern on the four strokes is the usually very thin and weak trailing edges on the  prop and being careful to flat hand the surface of the prop on them.  

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Neil_S said:

Hi Skippy,

 

I have had the ITECH2000A 2000 AMP PORTABLE LITHIUM JUMP STARTER from iTechworld for a few years.

Has been used to jump start my Savannah, a friend's Savannah, and a couple of cars. I take it with me in the plane any time I'm going to land at another airfield. (Same with my rechargeable air pump bought from Aldi years ago).

It also has torch and every connector under the sun for charging phones, running small fridge etc

 

Cheers,

Neil

 

PS Just noticed it's currently down to $175 in an EOFYS

Interesting!!!!

 

I have an iTECH  2000A. beautifully presented and promoted , its absolutely rubbish. Wont hold its (100%) charge beyond about 2-4 weeks. Wont supply enough power to pump more than 20L of fuel. Tried it on a Jab (4 cylinder), with a weak battery - 3 goes (obviously other issues with the Jab) and it died. Didnt try it on my air pump but given its poor performance in other applications, would not be surprised if it wouldn't pump up an small tyre.

I discussed my expectations with the iTECH sales rep (without mentioning an aircraft application)  and was recommended the 2000A.

iTECHWORLD are very evasive on the matter - not what I would consider to be professional supplier.

[skippydiesel]

2 minutes ago, kasper said:

Utter rubbish.  All rotax two stokes I have flown can be safely hand propped- breaker points or cdi - both. 
 

think about it - you are actually spinning the engine 2-3 times your prop speed making it easier 

 

and on the four strokes I have successfully hand propped both the 80 and 100hp 912

 

my main concern on the four strokes is the usually very thin and weak trailing edges on the  prop and being careful to flat hand the surface of the prop on them.  

You are the first and only person, that I have ever heard claim that they can hand start a 912.

 

If I am wrong I apologise however this is not what I understand to be correct.

[Area-51]

7 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

You are the first and only person, that I have ever heard claim that they can hand start a 912.

 

If I am wrong I apologise however this is not what I understand to be correct.

All 9XX series Rotax power units require 500rpm minimum to excite the CDI ignition into operation; below 500rpm the ignition system does not operate. So it is totally possible to hand start these units if you know how.

[Area-51]

Super Capacitor emergency jump starters are safer, and recharge to full capacity in a few seconds. They weigh about same as lithium cell units but are much larger.

[skippydiesel]

10 minutes ago, Area-51 said:

All 9XX series Rotax power units require 500rpm minimum to excite the CDI ignition into operation; below 500rpm the ignition system does not operate. So it is totally possible to hand start these units if you know how.

So the  hand "starter" would have to turn the prop at (very) roughly 250 rpm to get the engine to turn over at 500 rpm. Sounds like a big ask to me.

[skippydiesel]

7 minutes ago, Area-51 said:

Super Capacitor emergency jump starters are safer, and recharge to full capacity in a few seconds. They weigh about same as lithium cell units but are much larger.

Don't know anything much about Capacitors - can they meet the following;

 

Back up/emergency power supply to:

• Start my 912 engine, if battery low for some reason.
• Provide sufficient energy to power a 12V refuelling pump and deliver a minimum of 60L of fuel (more would be better).
• As above, with a small 12V compressor should I need to inflate a tyre.
• Be small/light enough to carry on away trips.
• Hold its charge for at least 6 months (more would be better)

[RFguy]

the "super capacitor " battery backups are actually a lithium cell and a large super cap in paralle- the ones I have seen.  mostly marketing fluff. BS

To start the rotax takes about, for a 5 second crank, about 6kJ

capacitors  are not all that useful because the energy stored is proportional to the voltage, this means that you can only use the top 50% or so and thus makes a poor utilization

Example-

100 Farad (huge) super cap charged up to 14.4 V = 10.3kJ.

100 Farad cap at 10V (lowest useful starter cable  source voltage ) 5kJ
So, difference of 5.3kJ is available.

Here are some super capacitors- you'd to 6 in series to be safe to use for a 12V system. BUT the law of capacitors in series is C total = 1 / (1/C1 + 1/C2 + 1/Cn)

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Maxwell-Technologies/BCAP0100-P300-S17?qs=W%2FMpXkg%2BdQ6IrVZMho%2FgPw%3D%3D

If its full of low grade super caps, it iwll be useless due to internal resistance.
So the capacitance of 6 in series is only 1/6 of a single only 16.6 F.

so you now need 6 in series, and 6 banks of those in parallel. and this puts the screws on the permissable internal series resistance- you you got to use expensive ones !

Or 36 capacitors....

The stored energy is quite dangerous. If there was any fault condition - at all, this could easy generate an instant fire  and set fire to anything

Why is it so dangerous ? because the energy can be released essentially instantaneously. 

total energy stored would be 36  x 10kJ = 360kJ. and with a very low series impedance . peak current is likely to be > 2800 amps (calculated) 

this could set fire to a PVC insulated copper starter cable, or explode a solenoid etc . you take it....

360kJ is the same as ~ 100 grams of TNT

so, a good old healthy battery is fine. 

 

 

[onetrack]

I was under the impression that a capacitors energy was discharged within a very short time frame - whereas a battery will keep providing power over an extended period.

So a battery makes more practical sense, if repeated start attempts are going to be the order of the day.

[walrus]

rotax 912 iS ECU requires two rotations at more than 200 rpm with twelve volts on ECU, so don’t bother trying to hand start it.

[facthunter]

IF a battery (Lead acid) is discharged it makes/ exhibits a Higher resistance and not act as a voltage limiter as it does when in good condition and about 1/2 charged. Freezing conditions wil part discharge Batteries. (They used to be called Accumulators).. Nev

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

I bought this one 

Jump Starter 2000A Portable 12 Volt Car battery Heavy duty high booster Rooboost

WWW.EBAY.COM.AU

---

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Jump Starter 2000A Portable 12 Volt Car battery Heavy duty high booster Rooboost at the best online prices at eBay!

about a year ago. I thought they were a bit of a joke with the size of cables. First job was to start the 7 litre Cat tractor that would barely turn over, started like it had new batteries. Works well as a power bank for charging phones. 

 

How long will it hold its charge for ie how often do you have to recharge (assuming nil usage)?

Does it have the ability to power small 12V appliances eg fuel pump. compressor?

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, RFguy said:

the "super capacitor " battery backups are actually a lithium cell and a large super cap in paralle- the ones I have seen.  mostly marketing fluff. BS

To start the rotax takes about, for a 5 second crank, about 6kJ

capacitors  are not all that useful because the energy stored is proportional to the voltage, this means that you can only use the top 50% or so and thus makes a poor utilization

Example-

1................................................................................................................

so, a good old healthy battery is fine. 

 

 

I dint think a capacitor was the way to go but you add all the scientific reason against.

 

What do you think of the emergency jump packs?

Would you recommend any?

[old man emu]

I thought you meant this:

[Thruster88]

32 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

How long will it hold its charge for ie how often do you have to recharge (assuming nil usage)?

Does it have the ability to power small 12V appliances eg fuel pump. compressor?

It keeps full charge for months at a time, couple of jump starts and it will be at 50-75%.

There is a DC out 12v/10A round style connection plus USB and mini USB type C. 

[johnm]

 

 

pppffttt - go to about 3.00 minutes

[kgwilson]

Like all these devices there will be good and bad ones. Anything bought on-line from a Chinese supplier cheap will be crap and have ridiculous specs. One of the guys at our airfield has one and he can start his iO360 with it. I'll ask him what brand & cost. You can't hand prop a Jab engine either. It requres 300rpm to excite the transistorised ignition & there is no gearbox advantage being direct drive.

 

I put a new battery in the other day. The last one was only 6 months old but someting went wrong inside & there was no voltage at all. It was replaced under warranty. I'm glad it happened at the hangar & the battery shop was just down the road.