Emergency Engine Start Devises

[RFguy]

ahh there's no transistors in a Jab system- they are impulse...  just that you dont get much impulse at slow RPM (voltage somewhat proportional to rotation) . (assumes no cold start kit). Not sure what is in the cold start kit. 

[kasper]

Glad the 10yo video from YouTube got posted … I am by far not the only only who has and can start them by hand AND you are not the only one online saying it’s not possible.  
 

Ita about the same as hand propping a VW conversion without an impulse mag.  
 

frankly I always go for a battery but if I or a flying mate have a flat battery hand prop is entirely available. 

[spacesailor]

A ' lead-acid ' , Accumulator is 2.2 volt ,

A bank / Battery , of 6 accumulators will give you 13,2  volts .

Simples.

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, johnm said:

 

 

pppffttt - go to about 3.00 minutes

Okay - seems I was wrong.  Still I would very much prefer to start a Rotax 912ULS using the starter motor

[skippydiesel]

How about we get back to the original topic instead of diving down another rabbit hole before there have been many responses

[spacesailor]

Lithium jump starter packs are good ,  If you buy Quality ,

Thats the problem , hook-up your jump-pack then watch the 'power cable detatch by the heat meltiing the 'soft soldered ' connections .

The way to work them is to ' charge the leadacid battery ,  then start the motor .

spacesailor

.

 

[skippydiesel]

11 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

Lithium jump starter packs are good ,  If you buy Quality ,

Thats the problem , hook-up your jump-pack then watch the 'power cable detatch by the heat meltiing the 'soft soldered ' connections .

The way to work them is to ' charge the leadacid battery ,  then start the motor .

spacesailor

.

 

Sorry I don't follow.

 

1." do you know of or are able to recommend a "Quality" "start pack"?

2. What do you mean by "hook-up your jump-pack then watch the 'power cable detatch by the heat meltiing the 'soft soldered ' connections" - I connect direct to the aircraft start battery.

3. "The way to work them is to ' charge the leadacid battery" - I was under the impression that these devises would not charge a start battery and are principally designed to assist a weak/partially discharged start battery - please expand.

 

[Old Koreelah]

5 hours ago, RFguy said:

ahh there's no transistors in a Jab system- they are impulse...  just that you dont get much impulse at slow RPM (voltage somewhat proportional to rotation) . (assumes no cold start kit). Not sure what is in the cold start kit. 

It should be possible to modify a Jab to allow hand starting- if it has a cold start kit.

I fitted a standard Jab CS kit to my baby. While the starter solenoid is energised, spark timing is retarded and (if I recall correctly) the spark is available at much lower revs.

 

[kgwilson]

16 hours ago, RFguy said:

ahh there's no transistors in a Jab system- they are impulse...  just that you dont get much impulse at slow RPM (voltage somewhat proportional to rotation) . (assumes no cold start kit). Not sure what is in the cold start kit. 

From the jabiru Engine Installation manual.

 

3.3 Ignition
• The ignition unit is a dual breakerless transistorised ignition with the magnets mounted on the flywheel and the coils mounted on the alternator mount plate. Figure 11 shows the coils of a Jabiru 6-cylinder engine.

[facthunter]

The velocity of the magnets due to a larger diameter than is normal should provide a better spark at starting revs than is available with motorcycle sized components.  There is no impulse effect that I can think of.. Air gap has an effect. You wouldn't want a lot of crankshaft end float.  Nev

[old man emu]

Wasn't the original question here to do with something like a booster pack? 

We don't seem to have answered that question.

[facthunter]

Wasn't the conclusion USE it with Caution? I wouldn't use one at all. (because I'm Cautious).  Nev

[skippydiesel]

On 23/06/2023 at 8:31 PM, skippydiesel said:

I would like to get feedback from Forum members who use this sort of device.

 

• Does it meet your expectations?
• What are your expectations?
• Would you recommend your device to an aspiring purchaser?
• What make & model do you have?

 

 

This is the original question(s). I cant see how any of it has been answered...... either no one much uses them........, is too embarrassed to say they do, .......... their emergency start pack falls so far short of their expectations, that they wont recommend or admit to owning it

[facthunter]

Don't you have your answer?.  Perhaps it's not in the words you want?  DEVICES by the way, but I doubt that's the problem.  Nev

Edited June 25, 2023 by facthunter

[skippydiesel]

11 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Don't you have your answer?.  Perhaps it's not in the words you want?  DEVICES by the way, but I doubt that's the problem.  Nev

Spelling has been a life long battle - If intended message transmitted, has been received correctly, communication had been archived.

 

No I don't have any answers - These devises are almost ubiquitous and yet no one is volunteering their experience  - where/what is the problem?

[Thruster88]

Um...

[onetrack]

There are very few people that I know - involved any form of transport - that carry emergency start devices. The reasons being, they are; A) just another cost and thing to carry, when you're already carrying too much ... B) they're only available when you've remembered to bring them ... and C) they need to be checked regularly, to ensure they're fully charged. The general attitude is that most people carry a set of jumper cables at best, because you can usually find a battery in something nearby.

 

And most people work on keeping starting and electrical systems in good order, with regular checks - and that involves regular battery checks.

 

Admittedly, if you're travelling to a remote location and, need to be 100% self sufficient, with total backup, then you would carry an emergency start device. The items that generally need jump starts, are the items that are poorly maintained and only used on an intermittent or irregular basis - items such as forklifts, tractors, or cars where the owner only uses it once a month and doesn't open the bonnet for 6 mths at a time.

[spacesailor]

Answer 

I have tried three " jumpstart " packs .

As answered " hook it up & crank the motor,  thats were the excess current heated the cables,  & disconnected by melting the soldered terminals .

The third one I do not " crank the engine " with it connected. 

Only top up the couple of volts in the ' starting batteries ' from the 8 amp ( 8000 mah ) jumpstart .

spacesailor

 

[onetrack]

Proper jump start arrangements don't have soldered terminals, they use Burndy or Cabac copper lugs crimped to the heavy duty copper cable, and the copper lugs are bolted to terminal posts.

Additionally, the amperage rating has to be conservative, the Chinese overstate the amperage capability of most electrical stuff they manufacture.

[skippydiesel]

3 minutes ago, onetrack said:

..........................the Chinese overstate the amperage capability of most electrical stuff they manufacture.

So where are these jump packs made?  - Mine came from WA supplier ( iTECH) but other than colour, looks just like my friends unit - same shape, size, claimed capacity. His was about 1/2 the price of mine  and did not come in a fancy carry bag

 

 

[onetrack]

iTech will not reveal where their jump packs are made, they only brag about "using Australian Lithium" in them, and that they are "made overseas", with "iTech quality control oversight".

In other words, they're most likely made in China, and iTech probably do an occasional factory paperwork check. If they were honest, they would clearly state the manufacturer, and the manufacturing process and location.

 

A mate came out with the best description I've heard in recent times. He reckons when it comes to manufacturing and retailing of parts, equipment, components, consumer goods - you name it - we have reached the age of TCM - Total Credibility Meltdown - because of the massive level of corporate lying and deceit, when it comes to who is supplying who, where the product is made, and who is in control of QC.

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by onetrack

[RFguy]

When we flew with one in Thruster's RV, I made sure I could reach it and drop it over the side . Stuart we probably need a proceedure for this, to ensure it doesnt end up colliding with the empanage components. 

Any suggestions ?  ANy suggested failsafe  manouvers for this sort of thing ?

I really wonder what manourver for a low wing would be best in this case. 

[skippydiesel]

12 minutes ago, RFguy said:

When we flew with one in Thruster's RV, I made sure I could reach it and drop it over the side . Stuart we probably need a proceedure for this, to ensure it doesnt end up colliding with the empanage components. 

Any suggestions ?  ANy suggested failsafe  manouvers for this sort of thing ?

I really wonder what manourver for a low wing would be best in this case. 

Has anyone heard of one of these power packs self immolating?

[RFguy]

Skippy, do you REALLY need this?

IE the SIMULTANEOUS probability of flattening the battery  AND not having any vehicles nearby to jump start ?

You'd be MUCH better off putting an Anderson SB50 connector somewhere pluggable connected to the battery and make a jumper lead that is that connector to a set of jumper lead crocodle clips. 
For say a 5 meter length, you will need a copper size of 17mm2.  easy ! weight of total 10 meters of cable (5m run) will be 1.523kg. you can buy some 4 B&S 20mm2  high strand count battery cable around the place.

[Old Koreelah]

Anderson plugs are great design and they even come in different sizes. I have one hidden under my cooling cowl flap and another attached to my old jump starter pack (which now has a four LiFePO4 cells in it).

When my battery has let me down, I’ve sat the starter pack on the ground and attached the Anderson plug. After starting, it’s just within reach to disconnect and drop the cable onto the ground as I taxi away.

 

A recent incident has diminished my trust of LiFePO4 batteries; they won’t explode or burn, but can overheat and swell enough to be a hazard. I’m relocating mine, similar what I’ve done with my camper trailer battery, which is now mounted under the back in an automatic ejector; if it overheats, three poly straps quickly melt, allowing gravity to swing its cradle down, where a pair of slides let it drop onto the road, away from the camper.

 

If I do something similar for my aircraft, it won’t land on someone’s head- will still be attached by a thin steel cable, but well below my plane.