Zongshen cd 100 /912 clone

[BrendAn]

A good channel to follow if you're interested in the clone 912

[RFguy]

I had a bit of a chat to them a couple of years ago. Still unsure whether they made it under license or if it was a pure clone without all the know how.

I just cannot beleive they would make it to 700 hours  (so far back then)  (which people I have independently spoken to in EUrope) if it was an 'uninformed clone' .

[onetrack]

If it was made under licence, their site would clearly say so, because it would be a sales bragging point. But engines and components are easily copied, and patents only last for 21 years (not that I'd imagine there's any important patents associated with the Rotax engines).

However, manufacturers use "registered design" rights as a way of beating copies and clones - but "registered design" rights are only good for 5 or 6 years, depending on the country - and after that period of time, aftermarket manufacturers are quite entitled to copy and sell the copied product.

 

What the aftermarket copier can't do, is insinuate or claim their product is approved by the original manufacturer - or is better than the original product.

I've just purchased an aftermarket engine overhaul kit for a small 4 cyl Caterpillar engine, from the U.S. aftermarket supplier, IPD.

IPD starting bragging that their pistons were more durable than the Cat originals (which they actually are) - but Cat sued IPD for false claims, and Cat won - because IPD didn't do independent testing and verification of their piston superiority claims.

[skippydiesel]

Imitator is the sincerest form of flattery

 

If the Chinese  follow the post WW2 Japanese model, they will copy all sorts of technology for a few years, then start improving the copies, then come out with original stuff that is World Class .

 

On this basis, I would expect the next version, to delete all those strange Rotax 9 quirks, that no one seem to know why they do it.

Edited July 9, 2023 by skippydiesel

[BrendAn]

it will be interesting to see how reliable this engine is . matt the owner of the plane posts a lot of videos over the canadian summer.

[onetrack]

The "interesting" part is, YOU are the cost-free test bed and test pilot, for the Zhongshen company. If you're happy enough to do that, you'll be fine with a Zhongshen-Rotax clone.

But most people like to purchase products that have had some serious level of testing done to them, to prove up reliability - especially if your life depends on that reliability.

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by onetrack

[facthunter]

The 912 is the kind of engine that requires good quality  control of everything to work. Materials, heat treatment and fits.  Nev

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, onetrack said:

The "interesting" part is, YOU are the cost-free test bed and test pilot, for the Zhongshen company. If you're happy enough to do that, you'll be fine with a Zhongshen-Rotax clone.

But most people like to purchase products that have had some serious level of testing done to them, to prove up reliability - especially if your life depends on that reliability.

 

thats exactly what jabiru did with their engines. 

[facthunter]

Regardless of how good some can be, any slacking off of servicing quality can cancel all that out. The manufacturer cannot control all the variables out in the field.  Those of us who have been following these things for a while will know it's not easy to make the best aero engine or even a very good one. Nev

[RFguy]

I'm convinced reliability is straightforward . just keep the oil clean / fresh, temps moderate, fuel line strainers and filters clean, avoid large changes of throttle  < 3 seconds,   and for continued monitoring watch the oil filter foreign body contamination and do leakdowns.... simple. 

[facthunter]

IF ANY of the material specs don't meet the standard all that loving treatment won't be worth a fig. This is a very critical motor with a 13 piece crankshaft to start with.  Nev

[onetrack]

The Chinese in general lack the attention to critical detail that the Europeans and Japanese have developed to the nth degree. The Chinese are happy to pay lip service to QC procedures - and extensive corruption in China often sees material specifications downgraded, or materials swapped to something cheaper, or materials supplied from a "mate" who is handing out kickbacks.

The Chinese seek major profits at all times, and they worship money and wealth more than the Americans (thus the constant Chinese accent on "gold" and "treasure" in their naming), and are always prepared to take shortcuts in meeting specs to improve profit levels.

We saw what happened when Boeing adopted the "Chinese model" for the 737MAX, putting profits ahead of safety. Boeings performance can be held up as a classic example of what can happen when regulatory oversights are corrupted, and independent checks and balances procedures are no longer carrying out their jobs properly.

[spenaroo]

hah, I thought I had heard of Zongshen before....

this isn't just any Chinese manufacturer.

They manufacture engines traditionally for cheap European motorcycles.

the Piaggio group (Vespa, derbi, aprilia) use them. they also have manufacturing agreements with Harley-Davidson

 

and the agreement seems to flow both ways, as they are launching several liter bikes that use the Aprilia engine and frame

(they also entered some bikes in Dakar a few years ago, and competitive in superbike racing)

now anyone want to guess who the manufacturer of aprilia engines was prior to the Piaggio group taking over........
 

.... that's right Rotax

Edited July 11, 2023 by spenaroo

[facthunter]

The Plane that nearlyksent the RAAus broke was I think a Pipistrel Sinus with a chute that ended up in a tree and then dragged along. the  ground CAsa Investigated the broken  crank where a piece had broken out where a press fit of a web existed. CASA were unable to determine the original fit where the 912 shaft breakage occurred. The importer somehow saw fit to sue the RAAus. A record would be in the CASA files.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

1 minute ago, onetrack said:

The Chinese in general lack the attention to critical detail that the Europeans and Japanese have developed to the nth degree. The Chinese are happy to pay lip service to QC procedures - and extensive corruption in China often sees material specifications downgraded, or materials swapped to something cheaper, or materials supplied from a "mate" who is handing out kickbacks.

The Chinese seek major profits at all times, and they worship money and wealth more than the Americans (thus the constant Chinese accent on "gold" and "treasure" in their naming), and are always prepared to take shortcuts in meeting specs to improve profit levels.

We saw what happened when Boeing adopted the "Chinese model" for the 737MAX, putting profits ahead of safety. Boeings performance can be held up as a classic example of what can happen when regulatory oversights are corrupted, and independent checks and balances procedures are no longer carrying out their jobs properly.

Wow! talk about sweeping statement -

 

The Chinese have put people/satellites into space, such is their "general lack the attention to critical detail"

 

Its odd that on the one hand you label the Chinese as "worship money and wealth more than the Americans" & then give an Uncle Sam example of home grown as apple pie greed & corruption "Boeings performance can be held up as a classic example of what can happen when regulatory oversights are corrupted............." pretty well proving that no one nationality/country has exclusive rights to particular human traits good or bad.

 

A few commonly held racial (Europeans ) profiles for you to ponder:

• The Poms (one of the European tribes), made some of the most badly constructed vehicles  (Ladas/were worse again). Their DB tractors were a lesson in appalling ergonomics (solid though). etc etc 
• The Italians made Fiats that came with non optional corrosion, also made some of the best sports cars ever and some stunning aircraft.
• The Germans, great engineers, great attention to detail, so much so they furnished much of the evidence at the Nuremberg Trials ............
• The Yanks tend to throw HP at just about everything and this probably describes their foreign policy. Their domestic system is a shambles but they put man on the moon - go figure 

On worshiping money/possessions - Not sure but  "Market Economics" may have its origins in Reagenomics/USA, possibly a close second to Communism, in its evil outcomes.

 

As for the Japanese - probably the World greatest technological forgers, they just copy the Europeans (mainly German) repackage with an Asian look . They are very good at it and often improve on the original.

 

I could go on on  - Its BS to label an entire nation & its people with such narrow and negative epithets. 

[spenaroo]

28 minutes ago, spenaroo said:

hah, I thought I had heard of Zongshen before....

this isn't just any Chinese manufacturer.

They manufacture engines traditionally for cheap European motorcycles.

the Piaggio group (Vespa, derbi, aprilia) use them. they also have manufacturing agreements with Harley-Davidson

 

and the agreement seems to flow both ways, as they are launching several liter bikes that use the Aprilia engine and frame

(they also entered some bikes in Dakar a few years ago, and competitive in superbike racing)

now anyone want to guess who the manufacturer of aprilia engines was prior to the Piaggio group taking over........
 

.... that's right Rotax

now admittedly here in australia we think the bikes are absolute garbage, and the workshops I was in refused to touch them...
but that had nothing to do with the engines, and more to do with the lack of any support. and the rest of the bike being built as disposable... 
cheap importers who wanted to make a quick buck, never brought in parts and would then disappear after a year or so.
not an issue if you live in the developing nations that these are actually built for - where anyone with basic skills will keep going with dirt cheap parts (why rebuild a shock, when the replacement is the same part as a Japanese manufacturers seal kit. same with a carburetor, why clean and rebuild when a new ones $40) to keep them going, weld the frame if it breaks etc..

but would recommend the engine to anyone with a dead postie bike

Wonder if its the same story here,
wont disrupt the traditional expensive players.

But if you were in a less regulated place like india or africa and wanting to keep a fleet running with little downtime.
could keep a spare engine instead of rebuild parts for the same cost...

Edited July 11, 2023 by spenaroo

[facthunter]

When anyone farms out. "Subs" it you can lose quality control fast. Of course the Chinese can make good stuff.. Indian lost quality control in the early 20's and another example is Chrysler-Jeep where the Cheapest possible gets the deal. Chinese tools are generally CRAP. German and US made Prado and Polish cutting tools beat them. It's hard getting quality alloy steel barstock these days.  Big issue for Australian manufacturers today. Suttons still make some of the best Taps and dies you can get AND adjustable reamers. Loose fitting adjustable reamers are not even good paperweights.  Nev

[BrendAn]

50 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The Plane that nearlyksent the RAAus broke was I think a Pipistrel Sinus with a chute that ended up in a tree and then dragged along. the  ground CAsa Investigated the broken  crank where a piece had broken out where a press fit of a web existed. CASA were unable to determine the original fit where the 912 shaft breakage occurred. The importer somehow saw fit to sue the RAAus. A record would be in the CASA files.  Nev

can you explain why raaus were sued . 

[facthunter]

No I can't and I won't offer an opinion here, except there was a LOT of animosity between the Parties.  Nev

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

No I can't and I won't offer an opinion here, except there was a LOT of animosity between the Parties.  Nev

no worries. i will look it up.

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

Wow! talk about sweeping statement -

 

The Chinese have put people/satellites into space, such is their "general lack the attention to critical detail"

 

Its odd that on the one hand you label the Chinese as "worship money and wealth more than the Americans" & then give an Uncle Sam example of home grown as apple pie greed & corruption "Boeings performance can be held up as a classic example of what can happen when regulatory oversights are corrupted............." pretty well proving that no one nationality/country has exclusive rights to particular human traits good or bad.

 

A few commonly held racial (Europeans ) profiles for you to ponder:

• The Poms (one of the European tribes), made some of the most badly constructed vehicles  (Ladas/were worse again). Their DB tractors were a lesson in appalling ergonomics (solid though). etc etc 
• The Italians made Fiats that came with non optional corrosion, also made some of the best sports cars ever and some stunning aircraft.
• The Germans, great engineers, great attention to detail, so much so they furnished much of the evidence at the Nuremberg Trials ............
• The Yanks tend to throw HP at just about everything and this probably describes their foreign policy. Their domestic system is a shambles but they put man on the moon - go figure 

On worshiping money/possessions - Not sure but  "Market Economics" may have its origins in Reagenomics/USA, possibly a close second to Communism, in its evil outcomes.

 

As for the Japanese - probably the World greatest technological forgers, they just copy the Europeans (mainly German) repackage with an Asian look . They are very good at it and often improve on the original.

 

I could go on on  - Its BS to label an entire nation & its people with such narrow and negative epithets. 

we aussies were at the forefront of technology too. the lightburn zeta had the removeable seat that fitted on the roof for watching the footy.

[facthunter]

Did I have a PIE holder?  Nev.

[BrendAn]

5 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Did I have a PIE holder?  Nev.

don't know but i bet it would have had an ashtray in those days

[spenaroo]

30 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

we aussies were at the forefront of technology too. the lightburn zeta had the removeable seat that fitted on the roof for watching the footy.

I know back in the 70's or 80's one of the tycoons had a parking spot in the grandstands so he could drive his car in and watch the footy/cricket without getting out.
cant for the life of me find the pictures now.

[spenaroo]

found it,

was Menzies with Carlton

Edited July 11, 2023 by spenaroo