Circuit Issues at uncontrolled aerodromes

[kgwilson]

I have just read through RFGuys near miss incident in the "Tell me about your last Flight" thread and decided to start this thread rather than clog up the other one which as I see it should be about good things.

 

A couple of weeks ago I went out for a morning flight. There wasn't a cloud in the sky, almost no wind and it was hands off flying. I headed West from South Grafton, over the first range and then North up the Mann River towards Tabulam and then to the South East and made a call over flying Baryulgil heading back. I made a 10 mile call and got a response from the local instructor that he was performing a power failure on takeoff on 26 followed by what at the time I thought was a landing on 08. This turned out to be a backtrack on 26 for another takoff.

 

4 1/2 minutes later I called overhead the airfield at 1500 & requested the position of the other aircraft. They advised "downwind for 26" so I turned flew to the dead side and announced "joining midfield crosswind for 26" and was at 1000 feet crossing the runway. I then announced " turning downwind for 26" . The other aircraft asked if I had them in sight and I responded "No" and continued looking. I had my SE2 which showed an aircraft close to Grafton Airport but nothing local. The other aircraft asked again if I had them in sight and advised "overhead Acmena, turning base". Acmena is a local youth detention centre and I knew vaguely where it was but had never identified it before from the air. I said at some point I still did not have the other aircraft in sight but can't remember exactly when that was so decided to continue on and extended downwind. I eventually announced turning base, saw and heard nothing more until I was on final when I saw the other aircraft on short final in front of me. They did a T&G & me a full stop.

 

Later I got a phone call from the instructor and then had a discussion with him & student.

 

It turned out that they were on base and saw me on downwind a little above them not far away. I did not spot them at all most likely due to my (low) wing providing a blind spot. 

 

So what went wrong here.

 

Fistly visual contact was not established until a near miss and then only by one aircraft.

 

Secondly the circuit diameters of the 2 aircraft were quite different. This was why the near miss actually occurred. My aircraft is considerably faster than the training aircraft (Jabiru J170) so I was catching them up all the time and also my performance envelope is far greater. The J170 would not be far off MTOW with an instructor well over 100kgs and a passenger I would guess at about 80-85kgs. My circuit is somewhat smaller and this is for reasons of performance capability of the aircraft and safety of easily getting back for a forced landing in the event of an engine failure.

 

The resolution is that whenever there are Flying School aircraft in the circuit I will fly wide circuits and use the schools turn points which have now been pointed out to me. I flew one the other day and its seems enormous to me as normally I will make the first turn crosswind at 500 feet which can be almost across the threshold of 08 if there is a 10 knot SW blowing & the downwind leg is another hill ridge further away from my normal downwind leg.

 

Any comments and/or suggestions?

[facthunter]

First of all, good on you for  bringing it to our notice. Discussion on this is appropriate. . I'll just mention the blind spot aspect at this stage and the obvious"need to Know" where ALL aircraft in the circuit are at all times.  Nev

[Bosi72]

A couple of observations here.

"Downwind" is a broad term and can extend to 2-3 miles. It is better to use "early/mid/late" downwind (or any other leg).

Also visual identification is responsibility of both aircrafts.

When instructor saw you, he should've said something "I am at your N o'clock, level/low/high".

 

[facthunter]

LONG final or "extended " downwind.  NEVER give an erroneous position. People will be wasting time looking where you are not.  Nev

[Thruster88]

Not having a go at you Kevin, this is obviously the other pilots perspective as to what happened. I think one problem in circuit work is forming a good understanding of exactly where other aircraft are from radio communications. 

 

 STATUS: UNDER REVIEW. OCCURRENCE DETAILS SUBMITTED TO RAAUS: Whilst downwind on with a student, a call was heard from another aircraft (returning from a flight and inbound from the north I heard the inbound call from him and notified our location in the circuit.) notified overhead the field with intention to join " midfield downwind", we notified our position on downwind and requested position of the joining aircraft and to confirm they were number two in the circuit and requested confirmation they had us visual. He said he did not have visual, at which I gave my location downwind turning base, there was no reply, we had just turned base leg and across from our left shot the joining aircraft at which I transmitted "you have just flown past us and you have crossed out path". There was a pause and a response by the pilot of the joining aircraft acknowledging my transmission. We continued on our descent and landed. They landed shortly after.

[pmccarthy]

We had Tim Penney from CASA give a presentation on this at Kyneton last night. It was really good. It was CASA AvSafety Seminar - "Non-Controlled Aerodromes: Manage Your Risks"

 

If it is presented near you, I would recommend it.

[440032]

or if not presented near you, ask for it to be!

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/resources-and-education/education-and-training/seminars-and-workshops/avsafety-pilot-seminars#Noncontrolledaerodromes–ManageYourRisk

 

 

[turboplanner]

5 hours ago, kgwilson said:

Any comments and/or suggestions?

The hardest circuits I've found are country strips with one other aircraft in the circuit out of sight and unclear radio transmissions.

[Old Koreelah]

13 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

The hardest circuits I've found are country strips with one other aircraft in the circuit out of sight and unclear radio transmissions.

…and paint jobs that blend in.

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

…and paint jobs that blend in.

That and looking down are one of the Achilles Heels of "See and be seen."   Another one is turning Downwind and trying to find a tiny white LSA55 on late downwind against a cloudy sky.

That can be overcome by strong LED beacons.

[Old Koreelah]

Just now, turboplanner said:

That and looking down are one of the Achilles Heels of "See and be seen."   Another one is turning Downwind and trying to find a tiny white LSA55 on late downwind against a cloudy sky.

That can be overcome by strong LED beacons.

…and darker, contrasting paint on the underside, where the sun doesn’t shine.

[kgwilson]

2 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Not having a go at you Kevin, this is obviously the other pilots perspective as to what happened. I think one problem in circuit work is forming a good understanding of exactly where other aircraft are from radio communications. 

 

 STATUS: UNDER REVIEW. OCCURRENCE DETAILS SUBMITTED TO RAAUS: Whilst downwind on with a student, a call was heard from another aircraft (returning from a flight and inbound from the north I heard the inbound call from him and notified our location in the circuit.) notified overhead the field with intention to join " midfield downwind", we notified our position on downwind and requested position of the joining aircraft and to confirm they were number two in the circuit and requested confirmation they had us visual. He said he did not have visual, at which I gave my location downwind turning base, there was no reply, we had just turned base leg and across from our left shot the joining aircraft at which I transmitted "you have just flown past us and you have crossed out path". There was a pause and a response by the pilot of the joining aircraft acknowledging my transmission. We continued on our descent and landed. They landed shortly after.

Yes that's it. I don't remember any transmission saying I'd flown past & I'd crossed their path as I continued several miles past that spot on an extended downwind still looking for them until I decided they must be on final by then and turned base. They made no turning final call but in hindsight I should have again asked for their position. Of course I saw them a few seconds later so nothing more needed to be said. I was completly unaware of the incident until I got the phone call & had the discussion an hor or so later.

[kgwilson]

I have LED strobes on each wing. I don't know whether the 170 has any beacon LEDs. I know the 230 has one on the top of the vertical stabiliser. The trouble with strobes is they are hard to see in the sky anyway but easy on the ground.. If the 170 had ADSB out I'd have seen it easily on the tablet and made an adjustment probably by doing an orbit.

[Area-51]

18 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

The hardest circuits I've found are country strips with one other aircraft in the circuit out of sight and unclear radio transmissions.

This is a challenging and anxious situation.

 

My personal experiences in similar scenarios at non-controlled airfields along with feedback afterwards from extremely experienced pilots.

 

The other aircraft may provide a very incorrect position report. I have joined circuit downwind with another aircraft clearly transmitting they were entering, backtracking, lining up and rolling on the opposing runway with no aircraft to be seen on the strip the entire time and no response to four repeated queries of their position until I called late final with a very heightened preparedness to bank hard right and power on, only to see them 50m off my port 10 o'clock at equal 150' flying the opposite direction in a twin. This was a new and very unsettling experience.

Advice received for above was: "If the other aircraft is not visual where they say they are, request they "CallSign" confirm they "are" where they say they are and to acknowledge your request", and be prepared to exit the circuit immediately if you believe it is required.

 

Runway numbers can be misleading if either aircraft has them perceived in reverse. (I have done this, and safely exited the circuit as soon as I realised the loss of situational awareness early in the circuit).

 

If one aircraft is familiar then that's still 50% chance of something going pear shaped. Get familiar, and if the other aircraft is clearly not situationally aligned then use the radio to advise; that's what the radio is there for.

 

The radio is not there to abuse other aircraft in flight for making an error. You can do that later on the ground when it's safe to do so if you feel, or submit an incident report.

 

Primary objective is to fly the plane in a safe and responsible manner.

Learn from every flight.

[kgwilson]

Another thing is that when the inital down wind call was made, if it was stated "Just turned down wind" I'd have joined crosswind on a normal crosswind location about a few hundred metres past the 08 threshold & even with my considerably faster airspeed and closer circuit I would not have caught them up, and more importantly would probably have seen them.

[aro]

Sorry to be that grumpy guy, but what is it about "visual" in visual flight rules, or "see" in (alerted) see and and avoid that people don't understand?

 

We fly a circuit so that aircraft are in predictable positions so you can see them.

 

If you take off or do a touch and go and there is an aircraft on crosswind, and you then have a conflict on base you have cut them off. It's your job to see them and maintain separation. It doesn't matter if they do a larger circuit than you'd like - you still need to see them and maintain separation.

 

If there is an aircraft on downwind and you want to join the circuit, you need to see it to make sure you are clear. If you can't see it, you need to wait until you can or make sure they are clear e.g. they report turning base. You can't just continue on and hope for the best. If there is a conflict on downwind or base, you cut them off. If you only heard them turn base, you still need to see them on base/final to be sure of separation for your own base and final.

 

Seeing other aircraft in the circuit is a skill that needs to be learnt and practised. Go out and do some circuits with other aircraft, and learn where to look and what they look like. Accurate height is important so you are looking for other aircraft against the sky rather than ground clutter.

 

If you still can't spot other aircraft in the circuit, maybe you need to assess whether your eyesight is good enough for flying. I know some people keep driving even after they are legally blind - I'm sure there are also people flying whose eyesight isn't what it once was. Harsh truth - sorry.

 

This is what worries me about the discussions of traffic displays - people talking about using them as a substitute for looking for and seeing other traffic in the circuit.

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, aro said:

Sorry to be that grumpy guy, but what is it about "visual" in visual flight rules, or "see" in (alerted) see and and avoid that people don't understand?

 

We fly a circuit so that aircraft are in predictable positions so you can see them.

 

If you take off or do a touch and go and there is an aircraft on crosswind, and you then have a conflict on base you have cut them off. It's your job to see them and maintain separation. It doesn't matter if they do a larger circuit than you'd like - you still need to see them and maintain separation.

 

If there is an aircraft on downwind and you want to join the circuit, you need to see it to make sure you are clear. If you can't see it, you need to wait until you can or make sure they are clear e.g. they report turning base. You can't just continue on and hope for the best. If there is a conflict on downwind or base, you cut them off. If you only heard them turn base, you still need to see them on base/final to be sure of separation for your own base and final.

 

Seeing other aircraft in the circuit is a skill that needs to be learnt and practised. Go out and do some circuits with other aircraft, and learn where to look and what they look like. Accurate height is important so you are looking for other aircraft against the sky rather than ground clutter.

 

If you still can't spot other aircraft in the circuit, maybe you need to assess whether your eyesight is good enough for flying. I know some people keep driving even after they are legally blind - I'm sure there are also people flying whose eyesight isn't what it once was. Harsh truth - sorry.

 

This is what worries me about the discussions of traffic displays - people talking about using them as a substitute for looking for and seeing other traffic in the circuit.

 Some good points here, and legally we HAVE to use see and be seen whether we like it or not.

However the next step is how you see the traffic behind you or under you (low wing) or above you ( high wing), or take action to know where they are, and there are some procedures there that are important.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aro]

6 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

how you see the traffic behind you or under you (low wing) or above you ( high wing)

Behind or above you or below you can be impossible to see. Circuit procedures are designed to give you a chance to see and sequence while random variations in flight paths are working for you. The closer you get to the runway, the less variation there is and the more probability there is of a collision.

 

IFR aircraft fly routes, altitudes and waypoints much more accurately so there is a higher probability of collisions away from the airport. That is why IFR need ATC separation (and why Australia's IFR in G is crazy...)

 

It's also the problem with straight in approaches - the extended centreline puts aircraft close together before they have had a good opportunity to see each other.

[RFguy]

I think you only see other aircraft when you know within a 30 deg cone where to look.  and the background has to be cooperative.

coming back into cowra last sunday arvo, I was (we were)  joining downwind for 33 from the north, and I had two aircraft coming in from the west couple of miles further out. 

Fortunately they both figured how how to organise themselves and joined one after the other over the top 1500' with a 180 turn and mid field cross wind . nice. 

so I wasnt worried at all, everybody was aware of everything. plenty of communication.

It was good choice for them to come in over the top of me at 1500  (while I was downwind )  and do the 180 down to circuit height- ensured no issues.

 

So alot of this comes down to defensive choices.

 

HOWEVER !  I did see them 5 miles out to the west-----only because I  looked where i thought they would be, there there they were !!!. aircraft against dark clouds.

One had their landing light on -  the low wing PMU , and that was a piece of cake  (and they had ADSB on and my flight  crew  bitch Thruster88 was watching them on ADSB)

[aro]

Yes, that's the way to do it. ADSB is great away from the airport, and when you have other aircraft inbound. In the circuit you should know where to look - although it can take a few seconds to spot someone e.g. on base against ground clutter.

 

Joining, I usually overfly at 1500 (or 2000) because it gives a birds eye view to assess traffic, and you can do a faster or slower descent to fit in.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, aro said:

Behind or above you or below you can be impossible to see. Circuit procedures are designed to give you a chance to see and sequence while random variations in flight paths are working for you. The closer you get to the runway, the less variation there is and the more probability there is of a collision.

 

IFR aircraft fly routes, altitudes and waypoints much more accurately so there is a higher probability of collisions away from the airport. That is why IFR need ATC separation (and why Australia's IFR in G is crazy...)

 

It's also the problem with straight in approaches - the extended centreline puts aircraft close together before they have had a good opportunity to see each other.

Good points, particularly straight in approaches; you lose all those opportunities of looking out sideways as the person follows a circuit. High speed aircraft and particularly Commercial passenger helicopters coming in for a landing on your duty strip will have your head nearly swivelling off.

[Garfly]

19 hours ago, aro said:

This is what worries me about the discussions of traffic displays - people talking about using them as a substitute for looking for and seeing other traffic in the circuit.

 

Yeah, that'd be old Capt. Straw-man and his mates; they say a lot of crazy stuff. 

 

19 hours ago, kgwilson said:

 If the 170 had ADSB out I'd have seen it easily on the tablet and made an adjustment probably by doing an orbit.

 

[RFguy]

Traffic displays are excellent as long as your primary  task is flying the airplane and generally looking around.

BUT 

We are all taught on the circuit corners- clear right, clear ahead, clear left.  that's actively looking. But really its very much cursory looking. I really doubt you are going to see traffic on those brief looks unless you're about to be gunned out of the sky in a collision. 

 

Let's be frank- circuits are flying intense, there is alot to do, the only time you get to just smell the napalm is about 30 seconds of the downwind and maybe on the base leg you get a bit of a view of what's going on on final and on the RWY and taxiways. Seeingn airborne aircraft more than 300' off the ground depends so much on the background and lighting.

 

Oh,  Comon Man !  (with apologies to Biden) It's unrealistic to think people are going to be gazing around out of their aircraft  doing circuits  looking for pinspots in the sky against busy backgrounds when they are likely busy with flying especially if there is some wind, or bumps.  and more so , students.  

 

I mean that with vigour.  Oh,  Comon Man !  Just like Biden puts it when he points out something obvious

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjjoGjh9xM8

 

So, any sort of traffic assistance that can tell you when you need to be on your guard is useful.

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by RFguy

[old man emu]

Operating at uncontrolled aerodromes seems to be a bit like having a railroad crossing on the road between your place and town. You get so used to simply driving across it because you haven't had to stop for a train there for years. Then one day you are travelling at a time you don't normally travel at, or there is an "special" running on the line. Suddenly you are shocked out of your reverie by a big thing blocking the road. At least trains are big and slow and can only be found in a permanent location.

[facthunter]

You need training to do a sight scan properly. You're busy flying IF you aren't proficient and comfortably "recent". .   IF you haven't been there use google earth to be familiar with distinctive features. Many RPT aircraft have limited cockpit visibility window wise. I think it's better if THEY don't mingle in the circuit if it's avoidable. Their speed is above yours by a significant amount. Straight in is more likely and YOU should always know enough to safely Go around if that's required to be safer.  Nev 

Edited July 19, 2023 by facthunter