Circuit Issues at uncontrolled aerodromes

[Old Koreelah]

RF is spot on about the limitations of the human eye. I’m glad we all now have access to affordable ADS-B, so we know where to look for other aeroplanes.

[RFguy]

My concerns are all about other non commercial GA and RA.
I dont find RPT or commercial GA ops  any issue. they communicate well on the radio,  and you know that  generally they'll do a straight in- IE there is no guess to their intentions.  If I have ever been in a race into the strip with anything larger like a Caravan I just go and do an orbit . and I dont ask them if they want me to do an orbit, I just ANNOUNCE  that  I am doing an orbit .   if I am running up someone's arse on a circuit  I will just tell them I am slowing down to give them some room, not wishy washy like " do you want me to slow down to give you some room ? ".  what HAS to happen to ensure SAFE ops is (usually)  already apparent so there is no need to introduce  any uncertainty. 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by RFguy

[facthunter]

I think I'd be a bit wary of doing an orbit near an aerodrome unless instructed by ATC in a controlled environment.   Nev

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

We are all taught on the circuit corners- clear right, clear ahead, clear left.  that's actively looking. But really its very much cursory looking. I really doubt you are going to see traffic on those brief looks unless you've about to be gunned out of the sky in a collision. 

 

Likewise, the training area "clearing turn"  has always struck me as more of a Hail Mary than an effective "clearing" of the area.

At best, it consists of maybe a half-minute look-see over that way then the same over the other side before launching into many minutes of often heads-down concentration on a given set of manoeuvres; instructor and student, both, happy in the knowledge that the sky is (by rite) theirs.  And yet every mid-air threat I've ever witnessed has appeared from nowhere and flashed past in seconds countable on one hand.  And that does seem to be the experience of most near-miss 'survivors'; there are dozens of videos on the Tube where you actually get to see frame by frame how difficult it is to see collision course traffic even fifty metres out.

 

That's not to say that a 'clearing turn' might not, one day, save your bacon. It conceivably could. (Anyway, not 'doing the honours' on a test flight will surely get you excommunicated.)  But, to convince yourself that you've 'cleared the area' just by going through the motions is irresponsible.

 

Lately, in online aviation videos, you do see instructors backing up 'clearing' turns with EFB traffic displays which actually can be relied on to detect nearby threats.  But, that's in the US where ADSB is now close to universal. 

 

 

 

 

Typical instruction in the customary method:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZJXQpF5bcg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Garfly

[RFguy]

17 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I think I'd be a bit wary of doing an orbit near an aerodrome unless instructed by ATC in a controlled environment.   Nev

I'm talking uncontrolled class G.

Not D or C. well you dont have an option in C unless you have a very good reason.  and in D everyone is surely expecting you to be proficient and do get it  right and stick to the program / proceedures / guidelines  ?

[facthunter]

I know "where" you are talking about. Can't  recall where anyone suggests orbiting in the circuit as a policy.. The "clearing turn" is used in the designated training area and even that is SUSS as just explained here in a previous post. .   Nev

[RFguy]

no no no no orbits in circuit, I was referring to INBOUND. sorry for the confusion

[Garfly]

And I see it's sometimes done on the 'dead side' waiting for a gap to open up in the flow. 

[RFguy]

ready to get mixed up in someone coming over midfield  cross wind.....from one direction at circuit height  or the other at 1500'

 

Plenty of choices for conflict ! 🙂

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by RFguy

[facthunter]

Just imagine the Possible effect that might have on confusing other circuit traffic. and especially  someone going around who got too close to preceding traffic on final..  Nev

[RFguy]

I'm cautious where I do orbits. 

I am very  careful/ concerned on crossing  RWY approach and departure headings..... not so bad when  there is a wind up and the pattern is a little more defined, IE you can be more confident something isnt going to come  up at you from that departure direction......

but I feel  for me, alot of  tension / stress in a zero wind situation with the potential  planes departing  off either directions on the RWY. 

IE each end of the RWY  out to perhaps 5nm can be hot with traffic  at 1500' and below.   In those cases my approaches are always midfield, cross wind , and I am tangental to the RWY heading inbound for at least a couple of miles .  but even then that's no guarantee....

Edited July 19, 2023 by RFguy

[Garfly]

"Just imagine the Possible effect that might have on confusing other circuit traffic. and especially  someone going around who got too close to preceding traffic on final..  Nev"

 

Yes, well the reason this thread got started is that we have several of our own having recent near misses in the circuit when everyone involved thought they were doing things by the book.  So there's plenty of room for confusion anyway as it stands.

 

 

  

Edited July 19, 2023 by Garfly

[IBob]

A couple of things:

 

1. It seems to me there is a whole 'king's new clothes' aspect to this business of see and avoid. Yes, we know we 'should' be doing it, and we read the instructions accordingly. But how many of us actually practise it?
I'll even turn the question round the other way: there are endless YouTube clips of pilots at all levels of experience flying. If anyone can show me footage of a pilot actually conducting constant routine visual scans as recommended, please post it here.

2. A fellow aviator here alluded to a fatal midair at our local airfield 3 years ago now. Part of the evidence in the resultant court case (since abandoned by CAA) was a report written by Dr T J Lambert, an expert in human vision. It deals, in very readable terms, with the realities and limitations of see and avoid in general, and then in the context of that accident. So far as I know, it has not been released into the public domain, but I am trying to find out it if it can be made available. It spells out just how unrealistic some of our expectations may be, and I think we need to realise that.
 

[Garfly]

37 minutes ago, IBob said:

 Part of the evidence in the resultant court case (since abandoned by CAA) was a report written by Dr T J Lambert, an expert in human vision. It deals, in very readable terms, with the realities and limitations of see and avoid in general, and then in the context of that accident. So far as I know, it has not been released into the public domain, but I am trying to find out it if it can be made available. It spells out just how unrealistic some of our expectations may be, and I think we need to realise that.

There was also this ATSB report (several decades old now) that brought a lot of vision-science to bear on the issue.

 

see_and_avoid_report_print.pdf

[turboplanner]

59 minutes ago, IBob said:

A couple of things:

One more; I'm interested to know what the legislation is on NZ circuits.

Is it "See and be Seen" policy like ours or is it separation by radio, i.e. calling the turns.

 

[IBob]

Turbo, I'm not for one moment suggesting our legislation and habits are better than those in Australia...or anywhere else, come to that. As you will see:
Recommended circuit practise for unattended airfields in NZ is one call downwind. I also call when on finals, and many pilots do (despite the pearl-clutchers worrying about us bunging up the airwaves).
But
Radio is not mandatory or required in uncontrolled airspace here........!
 

[IBob]

35 minutes ago, Garfly said:

There was also this ATSB report (several decades old now) that brought a lot of vision-science to bear on the issue.

 

see_and_avoid_report_print.pdf 859.05 kB · 1 download

Thank you Garfly.
And that report points to the other elephant in this room: the time required to recognise a threat then take any sort of effective action:
12.5 seconds, folks.
As I recall for our midair here, it was estimated that at the -12,5sec point, the other aircraft would have been about the size of a fly on the windscreen....(

[turboplanner]

21 minutes ago, IBob said:

Turbo, I'm not for one moment suggesting our legislation and habits are better than those in Australia...or anywhere else, come to that. As you will see:
Recommended circuit practise for unattended airfields in NZ is one call downwind. I also call when on finals, and many pilots do (despite the pearl-clutchers worrying about us bunging up the airwaves).
But
Radio is not mandatory or required in uncontrolled airspace here........!
 

I wasn't making any judgement, just trying to get a comparison between Australia and other countries, and compare CASA actions.

Was radio ever mandatory in uncontrolled airspace in NZ, and if so can you remember roughly when the change occurred?

[IBob]

I don't think it ever has been, Turbo.
I'm talking GA and microlight here, I have no idea about the rest.

 

[kgwilson]

29 minutes ago, IBob said:

Turbo, I'm not for one moment suggesting our legislation and habits are better than those in Australia...or anywhere else, come to that. As you will see:
Recommended circuit practise for unattended airfields in NZ is one call downwind. I also call when on finals, and many pilots do (despite the pearl-clutchers worrying about us bunging up the airwaves).
But
Radio is not mandatory or required in uncontrolled airspace here........!
 

I spent my first 30 flying years in NZ and the procedures have not changed. The same applies In Australia and there has been no push from any authority to make any change and I cannot see any compelling reason why there should be. Aerodrome operators can require the carriage and use of radios when using their facilities. This is specified in ERSA for South Grafton.

 

I am not sure of the legalities surrounding this though. The aerodrome operator only has authority over the use of runways, taxiways and other facilities on the ground. Once the wheels leave the tarmac CASA rules apply.

Edited July 19, 2023 by kgwilson

[IBob]

I don't have anything like your depth of experience, KGW, but I'm not sure I agree with you:
Since the midair here (double fatality) there has been a lot of conversation and thought as to how to improve the odds.
And for me, fresh urgency in that when, a year later, I had a near miss of my own on departure.

 

It seems to me that none of the tools at our disposal........see and avoid/radio/ADSB......... are anything like perfect in terms of collision avoidance. So I believe our best chance lies in using all these things, appropriately and where available. Certainly there has been a noticeable improvement in local radio work since the midair, which I find a great aid to my situational awareness.
And I can say this: on the two occasions I have been cut off on base by aircraft on finals (though not too close, thankfully) neither had made any radio call. And for my near miss on departure, which did involve radio calls, my contribution was to hear and discount an overhead rejoin on the incorrect assumption that we wouldn't be requiring similar air space.

So yes, radios. I very much believe in radios.

Edited July 19, 2023 by IBob

[facthunter]

The last part of that review should be read thoroughly. It WAS to introduce TCAS primarily. Where it ended up is shown an the later para's a lot of Mays and Might's in the earlier "COMMENTS".   Nev

[aro]

There is a big difference between see and avoid enroute and in the circuit.

 

The  circuit is designed so you can see other traffic. They are in predictable places so you know where to look.

 

Most flights I end up sharing the circuit with other traffic. I know you can see aircraft at circuit distances. It's not a tiny dot in the distance. No-one would claim I have superhuman eyesight - for a start I wear glasses that make everything 10% smaller (minification) so if you're not wearing glasses for short sightedness you have a 10% advantage on me.

 

(One of the traps with traffic displays is you start looking for an aircraft when it might be 5 or more miles away, when it really is a tiny dot in the distance or invisible. But circuit distances are generally less than 2 miles.)

 

This is pre-solo level stuff (pre area solo for joining the circuit). Seriously, if you have trouble, go out and do circuits with other aircraft. Follow the aircraft in front and learn where to look for them and how to keep track of them.

 

Don't be the guy they warn the students about in the clubroom because he cuts everyone off and has no idea where other aircraft are.

[Old Koreelah]

2 hours ago, aro said:

One of the traps with traffic displays is you start looking for an aircraft when it might be 5 or more miles away, when it really is a tiny dot in the distance or invisible. But circuit distances are generally less than 2 miles.

Aro that’s a good point and shows how important it is to adjust your map scale to the circumstances.
Near the circuit, zoom in, so the ten-mile circle fills the screen. That way, you filter out the distant planes that will be no danger, allowing your eyes more time outside.

[kgwilson]

2 hours ago, IBob said:

I don't have anything like your depth of experience, KGW, but I'm not sure I agree with you:
Since the midair here (double fatality) there has been a lot of conversation and thought as to how to improve the odds.
And for me, fresh urgency in that when, a year later, I had a near miss of my own on departure.

 

It seems to me that none of the tools at our disposal........see and avoid/radio/ADSB......... are anything like perfect in terms of collision avoidance. So I believe our best chance lies in using all these things, appropriately and where available. Certainly there has been a noticeable improvement in local radio work since the midair, which I find a great aid to my situational awareness.
And I can say this: on the two occasions I have been cut off on base by aircraft on finals (though not too close, thankfully) neither had made any radio call. And for my near miss on departure, which did involve radio calls, my contribution was to hear and discount an overhead rejoin on the incorrect assumption that we wouldn't be requiring similar air space.

So yes, radios. I very much believe in radios.

I probably didn't frame my comment very well. There are very few aircraft that fly NORDO. Most are vintage or older very slow microlights.

 

I have a personal rule. I give a 10 mile call and an overhead call EVERY time, then a joining call & nothing else if I hear or see nothing. Then I land.  If I stay within the 10 mile radius I give my intentions at 3 miles and then a joining call and land. If there is a NORDO aircraft I will never know unless I see it. If there are other aircraft in the vicinity and these are heard then the situation is completley different.

 

My experience at the beginning of this thread is something I have gone over and over and I still wonder how I got into this situation & why I didn't act differently.

 

The local Mooney pilot (& close friend) who had a wheels up after an EFATO recently cannot explain why after owning the aircraft for 25 years and many hundreds of hours he didn't activate the electric fuel pump or put the wheels down when these are the standard normal things he does every landing.

 

Outlawing NORDO aircraft is unlikely to make much difference when probably 98% of aircraft have a radio. All aircraft should have ADSB out as a minimum but there is nothing compelling you to have this & so far encouragement by subsidy is the only carrot. My SE2 sees everything ADSB out equiped for about 40NM but it is generally only GA trainers & a few other SE2 owners. Most aircraft still have nothing. Yes it is a combination of see and avoid/radio/ADSB but there will always be situations where the holes in the swiss cheese begin to align. Mistakes will always happen and some will not follow the rules.

 

Going back about 30 years I was visiting a friend at Pauanui & gave my 10 mile, O/H & joining calls when another aircraft called down wind on the same runway when he was on the reciprocal. I had a visual & advised he was planning a downwind landing & was in conflict as he had the runway wrong. What happened. Nothing. I made several other calls keeping him in sight the whole time but still nothing, then he flew away. These people exist and they will always be around. I was lucky. Situational awareness is the key but you cannot plan for the failure of others.