Circuit Issues at uncontrolled aerodromes

[Old Koreelah]

32 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

Situational awareness is the key but you cannot plan for the failure of others.

Good advice, KG. Even the most skilled and sensible pilots make mistakes, so we should assume they’ll do it in front of us.
 

I guess it’s like driving: be ready for the worst in other drivers. The authorities probably have statistics on the percentage of road users who are impaired, underskilled, near blind, unlicensed, drug-affected, etc. Add them all together and you might be too scared to get in your car. At least it should motivate you to be vigilant.

[derekliston]

8 hours ago, kgwilson said:

I probably didn't frame my comment very well. There are very few aircraft that fly NORDO. Most are vintage or older very slow microlights.

 

I have a personal rule. I give a 10 mile call and an overhead call EVERY time, then a joining call & nothing else if I hear or see nothing. Then I land.  If I stay within the 10 mile radius I give my intentions at 3 miles and then a joining call and land. If there is a NORDO aircraft I will never know unless I see it. If there are other aircraft in the vicinity and these are heard then the situation is completley different.

 

My experience at the beginning of this thread is something I have gone over and over and I still wonder how I got into this situation & why I didn't act differently.

 

The local Mooney pilot (& close friend) who had a wheels up after an EFATO recently cannot explain why after owning the aircraft for 25 years and many hundreds of hours he didn't activate the electric fuel pump or put the wheels down when these are the standard normal things he does every landing.

 

Outlawing NORDO aircraft is unlikely to make much difference when probably 98% of aircraft have a radio. All aircraft should have ADSB out as a minimum but there is nothing compelling you to have this & so far encouragement by subsidy is the only carrot. My SE2 sees everything ADSB out equiped for about 40NM but it is generally only GA trainers & a few other SE2 owners. Most aircraft still have nothing. Yes it is a combination of see and avoid/radio/ADSB but there will always be situations where the holes in the swiss cheese begin to align. Mistakes will always happen and some will not follow the rules.

 

Going back about 30 years I was visiting a friend at Pauanui & gave my 10 mile, O/H & joining calls when another aircraft called down wind on the same runway when he was on the reciprocal. I had a visual & advised he was planning a downwind landing & was in conflict as he had the runway wrong. What happened. Nothing. I made several other calls keeping him in sight the whole time but still nothing, then he flew away. These people exist and they will always be around. I was lucky. Situational awareness is the key but you cannot plan for the failure of others.

Since the council that owns the airfield I fly from handed landing fee collection to Avdata I have noticed an increase in non radio traffic. I have an airband receiver which I listen to when working in the hangar and often see arrivals or departures without a single call. Whilst I accept that there are no mandatory calls, it bothers me that if two or more aircraft don’t bother calling because they don’t hear radio traffic, then the potential for catastrophe exists. Even when they do use radio it isn’t always credible, I’ve heard people call 27 when in fact they are downwind or final for 09.

[turboplanner]

51 minutes ago, derekliston said:

Since the council that owns the airfield I fly from handed landing fee collection to Avdata I have noticed an increase in non radio traffic. I have an airband receiver which I listen to when working in the hangar and often see arrivals or departures without a single call. Whilst I accept that there are no mandatory calls, it bothers me that if two or more aircraft don’t bother calling because they don’t hear radio traffic, then the potential for catastrophe exists.

If Avdata's collection method is a safety hazard it should be reported

 

51 minutes ago, derekliston said:

 

Even when they do use radio it isn’t always credible, I’ve heard people call 27 when in fact they are downwind or final for 09.

This can be due to failure to Flight Plan or fatigue.

I usually get 1 or 2 reminders that Flight Planning is no longer mandatory, so I point out that I'm referring to your own Flight Plan where you put together all the figures and issues for the flight before take off rather than work from the seat of your pants inflight. The destination airport always comes up too fast, and often throws a curve such as unexpected traffic with poor radio procedure, so it's easy to become confused on which runway is which when you didn't refer to ERSA and you didn't check the expected MET for wind, and under pressure from the other aircraft, you haven't yet found the windsock to work out where the wind is (I've done it all). Writing the runway numbers into your Flight Plan reduces the pain. Deciding on some easy map points as lead ins to the airport area gives your mind some time to orient.

 

I find after a 4 hour flight I'm way down on circuit performance from fatigue, so always sit up straight and give myself a shake to get sharp, and that's made the difference between fitting in and screwing up for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[old man emu]

I've been eavesdropping on this topic since I don't fly, but from what I have been reading, these are the impressions I get:

1. Despite all the advice, operations at uncontrolled aerodromes are out of control.
2. Despite the authorities publishing advice on operating in and around uncontrolled aerodromes, the advice is generally ignored.
3. Although there is supposed to be a maximum speed limit within the circuit area, the wide range of performance of aircraft using an aerodrome makes it impossible to set a speed limit that the majority of aircraft can operate at. For instance if the maximum speed in the circuit was 70 kts, would that produce an orderly flow of traffic? Perhaps a "No overtaking" rule might work.
4. The published circuit diagrams do not specify the lateral outer boundaries of the circuit. 
5. The establishment of Lanes of Entry with readily identifiable starting points might solve the problem of locating aircraft approaching the aerodrome.

Avoiding landing fees by failing to make calls within the circuit is tantamount to stealing from the general community and our fellow aviators. It costs a motza to maintain an aerodrome to the standard we would all like. These uncontrolled aerodromes form part of the national transport infrastructure. The Federal Government long ago washed its hands of maintaining aerodromes, leaving it up to local councils or Big Business. Local Councils in rural areas bear the brunt of the maintenance costs, which money comes from the ratepayers. It is any wonder that Councils are closing aerodromes and trying to convert the land to produce higher income?

 

Turbo is spot on about the decline in the practice of adequate flight planning. My recent experience in this area has been well documented elsewhere on this forum.  One call cite the adage, 

I'll not copy and paste what Turbo said about planning because he's correct. The job of flying is not done until the aircraft is shut down on the flight line. To my mind, the decline in flight planning ability has been caused by flight planning is no longer being mandatory, as Turbio laments. While it's handy to be able to use software which only requires one to enter the locations of points A and B to enable the software to access stored  aircraft performance and current Met data to produce the information to go from A to B, there is still the need to pre-plan what one is going to do at the departure and destination aerodromes by applying one's knowledge that conditions around aerodromes are different from flight to flight.

[facthunter]

Lanes of entry are not a general thing. They are necessary  near controlled airspace but have their own risks.  Concentration of traffic in a small space. You can't put in a circuit speed limit. It's totally impractical. Safe speeds vary from aircraft to aircraft.. and on turbulence etc. The is no set of rules that will make circuit s absolutely safe where you don't have full Control and even then some do the wrong thing. The main rule is know where YOU are and know where all other traffic is. USE you radio properly and effectively. Level is the only reliable separation. It applies strictly in every holding pattern or full control IFR route. Nev

[IBob]

What Nev says.
I don't claim much experience or expertise, but I've had plenty of time to think about all this, with one tragic accident and further events as wake up calls.
One thought that has exercised me is a strong sense that these things would be less likely to happen to the truly seasoned professional pilots on the airfield. And it seems to me a significant part of that must be more complete situational awareness.
So I have been doing what I can to improve that for myself, with an ongoing focus especially on radio.

 

As I mentioned above, we saw a considerable improvement in local radio work following the midair. For me at least, that has made a considerable difference.
During a recent user meeting we had a visit from the CAA, who told us they are going to be looking a bit harder at our end of aviation. Last year they released an educational module on overhead rejoins. I have my own misgivings about aspects of that. But the next module is to be on radio work, with the aim of improving the general standard. I would welcome that wholeheartedly.

[facthunter]

A big discussion in the USA currently is about making radio mandatory. I think it's getting to that stage but it has to be used correctly. If you aren't very concerned about this problem you are missing something..  People who  fly about 5 legs a day can fly and look at the same time but a second pair of eyes can help also. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

4 hours ago, turboplanner said:

If Avdata's collection method is a safety hazard it should be reported

 

Good idea; the problem is widespread.

4 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Writing the runway numbers into your Flight Plan reduces the pain.

Being a visual thinker, I draw a little runway diagram showing orientation, numbers and the location of the sock.

[Old Koreelah]

14 minutes ago, facthunter said:

A big discussion in the USA currently is about making radio mandatory…

It amazes me that it isn’t. We’re almost a quarter way through the 21st Century, half the world’s people can afford mobile phones, most forms of transport is closely tracked and co-ordinated, yet we allow people to buzz through our skies with no communications?

 

No excuse if the plane has no charging system. My radio lasts a long trip on internal batteries.

[derekliston]

Another example at the airfield from which I fly! I went out this morning fully intending to do just a circuit or two. As it turned out, a flat battery put the kibosh on that. However, as usual I had my airband receiver switched on during my drive, I heard one aeroplane make a couple of totally garble calls. At the airfield there was a PA38 on the terminal apron and a Jabiru taxying out. The Jab called taxying to holding point with no mention of which holding point. The PA28 departed without any calls that I heard. There was also a light twin, Duchess maybe, that arrived on an Rnav approach (I presume) overflew before coming round and landing on 09, he then rolled through to the end, turned around and took off on 27. I didn’t hear any calls again! I’m not saying there was danger but there certainly was the potential for it!

[RFguy]

I do like that suggestion : 
"Deciding on some easy map points as lead ins to the airport area gives your mind some time to orient."

 

Orientation - awareness so true !!!!  IE pick a lake etc at 90 deg to the RWY out a few miles to fly overhead and fix yoruself on the map (map on your lap or map in your head). Now, you have oriented yoruself.  when I went into Maitland for the first time, I flew over a large electricity substation 4nm out  to orientate myself. 

It's almost like having a VFR approach point. When I came back to cowra the other day after a long day, I arrived without thinking of my orientation and then suddenly had lots to do.  I knew the wind, that was about it.  IE ask the question in my head, what is going to be the approach path I will take for the last 5 miles that will result in the least chance of conflict and confusion and fitting in?

 

talking about awareness and FUs ....   The other day I  radio announced at YCBB  that "  I would be taking off on 29, and then departing off the downwind leg to the south."   I took off on 29,  and then I flew west after my 500' turn.. because......because I thought that was south. It looked like south ! WTF did I do ? Fortunately no one around. Distractions  is what did it.  It was because I didnt do my usual thing of mouthing out loud to myself my departure proceedure. ("I will depart of 29, climb at 80 kts until 500',   and then left turn onto a bearing of 181 degrees. "... and I didnt set my DG on the runway before TO. tut tut !!!!! FFS Glen.....)  distractions.

***Whilst we remember most things, checklists are necessary when there are distractions. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by RFguy

[old man emu]

50 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

It amazes me that it isn’t. half the world’s people can afford mobile phones,

That's the requirement to carry a radio. A hand-held costs less than a mobile phone and weighs a fraction of the ones from years gone by. Still, how many aircraft are obviously carrying radios, but not using them?

 

I wondered why the light twin would do that, then I realised that there was probably no wind, so no advantage in taking off into wind. 

[facthunter]

They cost a fortune to fly  in so time saving becomes more important. It shouldn't be at the expense of safety. That's Airmanship.  Nev

[old man emu]

7 minutes ago, RFguy said:

I do like that suggestion : "Deciding on some easy map points as lead ins to the airport area gives your mind some time to orient."

That's a very fine thing to do, but if you and I are approaching Cowra how do we both know that we are aware of the easy map points that help getting into the circuit? I tried to establish a set of 10 Nm points for approaching Tooraweenah so that people coming from different directions would have some clue as to where another aircraft was. That work was roundly poo-poohed right here. In the end it didn't really matter because hardly anyone asked to be provided with the information pack. 

 

In following this discussion, I am forming the opinion that those engaged General/Recreational aviation consider themselves to be a Sovereign Citizen,  someone who believes that he or she is above all laws.

[facthunter]

I didn't think it was a good idea and said so. At Avalon which has a tower they have well defined holding patterns published for this purpose and you get cleared out of the pattern when there's a space for you. I knew people wouldn't warm to  your system and would prefer to do what they always do and take responsibility for their own way of getting into somewhere. . Yes pilots are Individualists perhaps a bit more than others.   Nev

[kgwilson]

If you want to see what busy is check out some of the adsb data from Oskosh on youtube live feed next week. They will be arriving from this Saturday. There is one way ATC so they do not want a radio response from you. They identify you at numerous reporting points and ask you to rock your wings. I saw a couple of years back about 30-40 aircraft all in a single holding pattern going around a lake. Most had ADSB out. I have no idea how many or if any haad ADSB in but when you are that close the only thing to keep an eye on is the aircraft in front. I imagine they would be able to see a few.

 

Of course this is all with a measure of control. The same thing happened 23 years ago when i flew in to Warbirds over Wanaka from Queenstown. There was temporary ATC and you called them at the reporting point  & from then on got told what to do without acknowledgement back. I was No 15 & couldn't see any other aircraft till we got close & then they started appearing as we bunched up. The twin in front of me on final fogot his gear & was told to go around which he didn't. Put it down at the last minute & landed. 600 light aircraft flew in that day. Anything is manageable if it is controlled.

Edited July 20, 2023 by kgwilson

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

That's a very fine thing to do, but if you and I are approaching Cowra how do we both know that we are aware of the easy map points that help getting into the circuit?

This isn't a formal thing, not is it compulsory, it's just a way of orientating yourself before the circuit with itrs consequences. It doesn't matter if the other pilots doesn't do it.

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

In following this discussion, I am forming the opinion that those engaged General/Recreational aviation consider themselves to be a Sovereign Citizen,  someone who believes that he or she is above all laws.

In GA faster aircraft are generally used in airspace which is more formal, and with substantially more training and greater consequences. Here, primarily RA people will be discussing their world version, so you read more of "I do this" and in the circuits we are discussing there will often be a mix of the two.

[BrendAn]

just when i thought it was safe to fly i read all the near misses in this thread. its pretty sobering. what worries me is i have bought an xair because i decided i want to fly low and slow and land in paddocks so i got rid of the jabiru. now after reading this thread i wonder if i will be a sitting duck flying 500ft circuits at 55knts. i have radio but should i be getting a skyecho .  i am thinking of faster aircraft dropping in on me on final .

[aro]

10 hours ago, old man emu said:

I've been eavesdropping on this topic since I don't fly, but from what I have been reading, these are the impressions I get:

1. Despite all the advice, operations at uncontrolled aerodromes are out of control.
2. Despite the authorities publishing advice on operating in and around uncontrolled aerodromes, the advice is generally ignored.
3. Although there is supposed to be a maximum speed limit within the circuit area, the wide range of performance of aircraft using an aerodrome makes it impossible to set a speed limit that the majority of aircraft can operate at. For instance if the maximum speed in the circuit was 70 kts, would that produce an orderly flow of traffic? Perhaps a "No overtaking" rule might work.
4. The published circuit diagrams do not specify the lateral outer boundaries of the circuit. 
5. The establishment of Lanes of Entry with readily identifiable starting points might solve the problem of locating aircraft approaching the aerodrome.

I don't think that's true. Operations at uncontrolled aerodromes usually work pretty well. Some pilots are uncomfortable though.

 

The advice on operating used to be fairly prescriptive, but CASA have been dialling it back. I don't think that's a good thing. However, most people still do what CASA used to proscribe, e.g. calls when turning base.

 

Speed limits don't really make sense because aircraft need to operate at different speeds. There is the option for fast aircraft (e.g. jet/turboprop) to do 1500' circuits instead of 1000'. Otherwise, adjusting the size of the circuit works pretty well to account for different speeds.

 

Lanes of entry (especially the approach points at Class D airports) make no sense. The idea is to work out where other aircraft are before you try to be in the same place. Having people all fly to the same place then make their radio calls is exactly backwards. I'm amazed we haven't had more collisions at the Class D approach points. Goes to show how well the big sky theory really works I guess.

[aro]

6 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

i wonder if i will be a sitting duck flying 500ft circuits at 55knts. ...  i am thinking of faster aircraft dropping in on me on final

Your main problem will be faster traffic on final as you say. Shouldn't be too much of a problem unless its very busy. Just make sure you look for other aircraft on final while you are on base. Don't focus on the runway. That goes for everyone really - for a left hand circuit you should be checking to your right on base and before you turn final.

 

You have a lot of flexibility by adjusting your circuit size. I was doing circuits (1000') in a Gazelle one time, and a C172 took off right behind me. I don't like a faster aircraft too close behind me, so I kept my circuits fairly tight. After 3 circuits I was turning base as they were turning final. 😀

[kgwilson]

There are thousands of takeoffs and landings and circuits at uncontrolled aerodromes every day without comment. That is because everything works as it should.

 

When an issue does occur it is right to bring that to the attention of as many pilots as possible. Discussion on the incident with others adding their thoughts, experience or opinions increases knowledge and awareness for everyone. In my 47 years flying and thousands of takeoffs, landings and circuits I have encountered a handful of issues. My intention is to make as many pilots as possible aware of these so we can all learn and get better.

 

At South Grafton we have Trikes, Powered Parachutes, slow Ultralights, Gliders, model jets, Helicopters, RA & GA singles of all types including turbines like PC12s and twins like Kingairs and everything works almost all of the time.

[pmccarthy]

I had a very unwelcoming experience at Grafton a few years back, and have told a few people it was South Grafton . The previous post made me realise I was wrong. It is confusing, because it is south.

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, BrendAn said:

just when i thought it was safe to fly i read all the near misses in this thread. its pretty sobering. what worries me is i have bought an xair because i decided i want to fly low and slow and land in paddocks so i got rid of the jabiru. now after reading this thread i wonder if i will be a sitting duck flying 500ft circuits at 55knts. i have radio but should i be getting a skyecho .  i am thinking of faster aircraft dropping in on me on final .

The near misses being discussed are out of 10,000 RA members plus GA pilots, so a bit like murders.

I'll have something shortly on xair flying.

[RFguy]

ARO said : " The idea is to work out where other aircraft are before you try to be in the same place. "
love it. yes. so true. 

 

As for the Xair, I think you are over worried about any issue.  The Xair wont be any different from any other problem unless you are threading yourself into a circuits full of planes.  and then everybody is on their toes anyway.  If your circuits are tight 500 footers, and your timing is right, radio calling is good,  that should work just fine.   I would have thought in an Xair you wouldnt be spending hours in the circuit either.   The problem with congestion might occur if you fly too deep on downwind, or too wide etc.  But that also goes for aircraft flying 1000' circuits. The other thing, is, if uncomfortable ,  there a strip you can TO and fly to for bulk circuit work? like a croppers dirt  strip somewhere ? The Xair wont need much strip...

[johnm]

this is serious stuff where lives are at risk but I can't help thinking of vehicle roundabouts and the human interpretation of what is correct

 

roundabouts: Situational awarness is required - what lane - where not to cross - when to go and where  / / how to exit; (what direction - for some); etc

 

aircraft circuits:  Situational awarness is required but there are vertical and horizontal dimensions, and speeds, heights, conflicting directions, etc

 

Both require correct human interpretation - radios will help a great deal (joining pilots can understand the likely circuit being used and who is out there using a radio properly) - but I think the human interpretation of what is the correct way to join is the big one