Mid-air collision at Caboolture - 28/07/2023

[red750]

3 hours ago, ClintonB said:

News said 2 different direction runways being used, so may be an intersection collision, and missed calls.

sad for all involved, crew and emergency services.

Ch 7 News reported winds calm, and showed animation of aircraft departing on separate runways simultaneously colliding at intersecion.

[kgwilson]

Very sad. Condolences to the deceaseds familys. A failure in effective communication seems pretty likely. With one on 24 and the other 29 it is unlikely they would be able to see one another if they were both taking off due to the bush between the 2 runways.

[onetrack]

There are multiple reasonably reliable reports, including from the ATSB, that the J430 was taking off, and the Pawnee was landing on the cross runway, as the collision occurred.

[Area-51]

26 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

Very sad. Condolences to the deceaseds familys. A failure in effective communication seems pretty likely. With one on 24 and the other 29 it is unlikely they would be able to see one another if they were both taking off due to the bush between the 2 runways.

Its just a very very tragic situation, and clearly something somewhere went very wrong. And the speculation will abound. I just find it extraordinary that two aircraft can start their roll on two seperate runways without the other knowing. Its almost saying one or both of the aircraft had the radio muted or completely tuned off. Or as someone else pointed out confusion from surrounding off field radio calls maybe played a part. Surely somebody working in a nearby hangar was listening to the ctaf

Edited July 28, 2023 by Area-51

[turboplanner]

5 hours ago, onetrack said:

There are multiple reasonably reliable reports, including from the ATSB, that the J430 was taking off, and the Pawnee was landing on the cross runway, as the collision occurred.

There's only one duty runway.

[Bennyboy320]

9 hours ago, dan3111 said:

Over the last 5 five years the circuit pattern and surrounding ares Redcliffe and Caloundra strips using same frequency  has been crazy busy to the point there no really quiet day of the week to fly .

Firstly condolences to the family & friends of our lost aviators, RIP.

 

I am based out of Caboolture & totally agree that the shared CTAF frequency with Caloundra is a flight safety issue & MUST be addressed ASAP.

[kgwilson]

I started my RA conversion at Caloundra in 2009 at the Skyfox Flying School and it was really busy then. I only flew on Weekends.

 

I can't imagine anyone not making a entering /lining up call though many do not make a rolling call especially when there is little or no other traffic. With a busy frequency overtransmits are common and it is possible that both these aircraft made their entering/lining up and/or rolling calls at the same time so they would have not heard anything.

 

There are plenty of frequencies available even with the 25kHz spacing to give all 3 aerodromes their own. Most radios other than those in older GA aircraft and old hand helds, even the poorly rated Microair M760 can monitor 2 frequencies.

Edited July 28, 2023 by kgwilson

[KRviator]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

There's only one duty runway.

True, but you can use other runways if necessary. I've done so my self at Caloundra for a departure. Multiple aircraft using 12 meant I couldn't get a safe gap to enter and backtrack, so after waiting and realising this, I promptly turned 180* and took off on 05 and stayed at 500' until I was clear of the circuit, then climbed to altitude. In saying that though, I could ensure both lateral and vertical separation from that other circuit traffic while doing this.

Here, it looks like there was no separation assurance for using intersecting runways, and this is the outcome.

While it's all well and good to say "a landing aircraft has right of way" that'd predicated on the fact they're both using the same runway. If the Jab was using the into-wind or current runway-in-use, then the Pawnee would be obliged to give way to him.

[danny_galaga]

Yeah, if you ve been at Caboolture, that visibility around the junction is not great with the trees in the way.

 

Looks like the Pawnee is the glider tug after all. So both pilots very experienced. Makes me worry about what chance I have around busy places with my lack of experience.

[facthunter]

I always take a near miss as  a near HIT because the system has broken down to have it. Others think a "miss is as good as a mile" because you got away with it  (That time). Those aerodromes in  close proximity are a recognised bit of dangerous airspace that probably requires  co ordinated procedures or do we just continue playing Russian Roulette?   Nev

[RFguy]

6 hours ago, Bennyboy320 said:

Firstly condolences to the family & friends of our lost aviators, RIP.

 

I am based out of Caboolture & totally agree that the shared CTAF frequency with Caloundra is a flight safety issue & MUST be addressed ASAP.

Yup.  .same problem at Cowra. At the centre of 5 CTAFs within 60 nm ! I have put that problem- solution into my ATSB report on my near hit last month. 
 

I found out the way to  a get the ball rolling with addressing the need for a CTAF change  is via a certain committee. :  Moruya just got a CTAF change. I got this from Air Services : 
"The responsibility for the approval to change a CTAF falls to CASA.  The process is to create a consultation on the Aviation State Engagement Forum (AvSEF).  New South Wales | Aviation State Engagement Forum (avsef.gov.au) ""

You can also get in touch with the NSW AvSEF Convenor . (or QLD for you guys)

....---Glen at Oshkosh.

 

[facthunter]

I'm not going so far as to offer an opinion on the sharing of the frequency as I can see issues both ways. People who are long term users of that airspace  including those who pass through it regularly should have more say than people like me. . When the lowest cost option is likely to continue the chance of improvement is very limited. There's just likely to be more finger pointing and waffle.  Nev

[spacesailor]

Same thing happens at the Oaks.

Landing ' Camden ' aircraft over fly the Oaks runway. 

Trainees are told to keep their heads down & never go hight than the circuit hight . 

spacesailor

[Garfly]

According to this report the Pawnee was going around as the Jabiru was taking off on the crossing runway.

 

 

 

One plane in fatal aerial collision north of Brisbane had just aborted a landing attempt, ATSB reveals - ABC News

WWW.ABC.NET.AU

---

One pilot survived the mid-air collision near Caboolture Airfield, which killed David and Jan Maddern on Friday morning.

 

[Kyle Communications]

This tragic accident is like most accidents. It is a accumulation of circumstances

The ABC report above is pretty accurate but there are a few details that are not stated that did have a large contributing factor on the accident.

I have seen all the video as I did the download of all angles for the police and ATSB.

It is quite clear what has happened. Luckily we have a good 24/7 camera system at YCAB showing all directions and majority of runways and off areas.

I obviously can not comment on the exact circumstances but this tragic situation is a lesson for everyone.

We will be looking into a permanent radio recording setup for the future. I made a system that I used here to monitor all radio calls around the airfield for about 3 months and considering I am 7km away from the airfield it did work very well. I will be pushing for a more professional system to be installed at the airfield.

 

[turboplanner]

ATSB Update:

"ATSB transport safety investigators returned to Caboolture airfield this morning to continue collecting evidence as part of their investigation into yesterday’s tragic fatal mid-air collision.

An initial analysis of a number of sources of video footage showed that the Piper Pawnee glider tug aircraft was returning to land at the airfield on runway 06, while the Jabiru J430 was in the process of taking off from runway 11.  

 The Pawnee was on approach to land before it commenced a go-around – an aborted landing. Go-arounds are a common and well-established practice in aviation and can be conducted for any number of reasons, but we will seek to understand why a go-around was conducted in this instance. 

As well as continuing to analyse video footage, investigators will also conduct interviews with the Pawnee aircraft pilot and witnesses, download any available flight tracking data, and retrieve any avionics devices on either aircraft that may have recorded data.

On-site investigators will also use a drone to map the accident site, and look to fly indicative flightpaths of both aircraft to help build an understanding of what the pilots saw of the other aircraft. 

The ATSB continues to call for any witnesses who may have seen the accident, and in particular for any pilots operating in the area who may have heard radio calls from either accident aircraft, to make contact with us via the witness form on our website.

The ATSB anticipates publishing a preliminary report, which will detail factual information established in the investigation’s evidence collection phase, in about 8 weeks' time. 

A final report, detailing analysis and outlining contributing factors, will be published at the conclusion of the investigation.

However, should any critical safety issues be identified during the course of the investigation, the ATSB will immediately notify relevant parties so that appropriate safety action can be taken.

[turboplanner]

VFRG Page 242: CASR 91.380

[RossK]

Preliminary Report, 

ATSB

[facthunter]

When the holes line up. Very sad. Nev

[Cosmick]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-08/qld-caboolture-airfield-fatal-crash-preliminary-report/102834386

[Bosi72]

9 hours ago, Cosmick said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-08/qld-caboolture-airfield-fatal-crash-preliminary-report/102834386

journalism..

[pmccarthy]

Do others turn down the radio to do a run up? Is it taught?

[Thruster88]

The report leads us to believe the tug pilot was going to land and hold short of the crossing runway, why was the cessna a factor?

 

Radio can not be relied on for traffic separation in a blind broadcast system anymore than traffic on a screen or tablet. All systems have multiple failure modes. Situational awareness is easily lost.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Thruster88

[RFguy]

my radio goes on just after engine start and oil pressure established... squelch test button pulled/pushed to verify I can hear the radio open squelch noise in the headset. (IE verify audio path). this should give me about 10 miles of inbound approach aircraft traffic or at least 7 minutes of traffic listening (IE situational awareness). ADSB (in+out)  + tablet goes on about the same time  . Set to 4 kts minimum (ADSB broadcast velocity threshold) so that equipped aircraft can see me taxiing. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by RFguy

[turboplanner]

4 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

The report leads us to believe the tug pilot was going to land and hold short of the crossing runway, why was the cessna a factor?

 

Radio can not be relied on for traffic separation in a blind broadcast system anymore than traffic on a screen or tablet. All systems have multiple failure modes. Situational awareness is easily lost.

There are nesting issues

If SPA had used the into wind runway it wouldn't have mattered about EVR

If EVR hadn't turned down his radio perhaps he wouldn't have crossed the runway

Aircraft taxying for the into wind runway should have been expected etc.

Who had the obligation to give way to the right etc.

Different weightings at different phases.