A question of side slipping

[Flyingphot]

I'm sure there is a right and wrong answer to this.

 

Scenerio

 

Dead stick and approaching your selected field with a 15K wind from 45 degrees to your right front and you are too high and going to overshoot. So you need to sideslip to get down quickly without building too much speed.

 

The question is do you point your nose to the right, into the wind, and slip down your left wing (which will leave you with your right into wind wing up as you straighten up for the flare and have you drift to the left) or do you point your nose to the left, away from the wind and slip down the right wing and hope you don't get blown too far off course.

 

The reason for the question is I have tried both with power coming into my short strip and I'm still not sure which I would use if the above scenerio occurred.i_dunnoi_dunno:help:

 

Slipsliding away

 

Bill

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Bill, which sliping nose direction gives the best approch view ?

 

 

[Guest J430]

Wing into wind is the way to go.

 

Wing up to wind is a sure way to track off the centre line.......and maybe crash!

 

J:wave:

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

J430, wouldnt a pilot practiced in slipping be able to track down the centre line regardless of wing and or wind direction ?

 

 

[Guest J430]

I have consulted with some folk with much higher knowledge levels than I have of such matters and the verdict was as stated above.

 

They did suggest I go find a 15kt X-wind and try it. They thought I would provide much humour as I typed my report from hospital:black_eye:

 

Go try it for yourself, but it makes sense if you imagine what is going on.

 

J:wave:

 

 

[JohnMcK]

Hi Flyingphot,

 

I am not an instructor so this post is only worth 2 cents.

 

Be very careful of what you read in these forums on actual flying matters. Take note of all the posts, there are often very good posts, but you often don't know who they come from or the experience of the poster. (I have seen both good and dangerous posts) Also what works for one may not work for another. Talk to and practice with an experienced instructor in the type of aircraft you fly.

 

My home airfield often has a strong crosswind component. My technique is to crab down final, with nose into wind, leeward wing lower. If I am high, I put on some slip, keeping the nose into wind, flare with nose still into wind, kick straight just before touchdown and lower upwind wing. But this is what works for me. Others may have a very different technique.

 

See and practice with a good Instructor. That is what they are there for.

 

Perhaps Ian could find a method of getting qualified instructors to comment on flying matters like this, and have some symbol that identified them as such. I know there are a couple of very experienced instructors on this Forum.

 

Cheers,

 

John

 

 

[Admin]

John

 

I have asked for help in the past of any instructor that would like to become the forum's "Resident" Instructor with the title under their name but alas, no one offered. I am sure out of now 1,855 forum members someone will offer - so how about it...anyone?

 

 

[Mazda]

Wing down into wind. Think of it as a normal wing down crosswind landing, just slip more as required.

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

Wing into wind is the way to go.Wing up to wind is a sure way to track off the centre line.......and maybe crash!

 

J:wave:

+1.

 

FWIW I nearly failed a flight test for getting it the wrong way around in very challenging conditions, but I think I re-gained a few points for getting the examiner back alive. My excuse was that I lifted the wing to keep an eye on a PC9 on the crossing runway, which I found a little intimidating. But the examiner (an exceptional airman) said a correct response to the wind was a higher priority.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

I reckon break this up a bit. There are two separate issues:

 

1. I am too high and wish to lose height by sideslipping;
    
    
   
2. I have a 45 degree right crosswind at 15 knots which I must compensate for;
    
   

 

Let's take the second one first. Regardless of whether you have power or not - think glider - you still have to compensate for that xwind. You can do that in many ways, but two of the standards are to crab with nose into wind and wings level; or to slip with right wing down and nose tracking centreline. Either will do, however when you come to land you will want your nose tracking centreline and your right wing down to hold the centreline.

 

So that gives us our starting point - we want to land with our nose pointing down the runway and with our right wing down, sufficient to hold centreline. However you tackle the other part ("I'm too high") you need to be in this configuration during the actual landing.

 

That leaves you with choices about how you lose height. For instance assuming a LH circuit and a very close base leg you might slip to the left along base leg, conduct a coordinated turn onto final and then configure the aircraft into a right wing down slip to both counteract drift and to lose height. This has the advantage that you do not have to roll from left wing low to right wing low, just at that critical moment, close to ground as you flare. It also means that all you have to do is use nose angle to ensure that you actually track centreline. So if you are slipping right to counteract wind and also slipping further right to lose height then a/c nose might need to be left of the c/l to hold the aircraft on the centreline. As you lessen the slip close to the flare then you allow a/c nose to come a little less left (in other words towards the right) to hold centreline.

 

There is also a further question about whether you should be heavily crossed up at low altitude. The RAAF for instance - as I understand it - want their pilots to be using coordinated control inputs from 200' AGL. In a forced landing situation obviously it is about getting into the paddock but you need to be aware of energy management as a heavy sideslip can deliver high ROD which is not so good as you come to land.

 

Caveat - I'm not an instructor.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

The standard recommended technique is wing down into wind for side slipping in a crosswind.

 

I certainly used to slip 'out of wind' but this was purely for currency practice on directional control at confusing angles as in my early days students used to leave me with some interesting challenges to sort out now and then!

 

If you think about it an organised normal cross wind approach fits the scenario if you use the wing down technique. This is anyway a gentle slip and all you have to do is deepen the situation into a side slip by increasing the bank angle into wind and compensating with more opposite rudder.

 

When you come out of the slip you are still orientated correctly for a cross wind landing.

 

None of this takes a great deal of effort, standing on hands wondering if you are doing the right thing, changing the flight profile in different directions a few times and totally avoids getting mixed up with secondary effects as well as significantly reducing pilot work load when you are under pressure anyway.

 

Tony.

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Re slips, as mentioned by others - if in doubt find a good experienced instructer.

 

Something I keep in mind when thinking about short final ops and trying to slow/low down to land - a stall on short final has a high fatal probability, where an airfield overrun has a high embarrassment probability. Myself, I prefere to be embarressed.

 

Some sundry thoughts on sliping (please note I'm not an instructer)

 

- I find in some side by side seating aircraft that a right wing leading slip gives a better view (situational awareness) even alowing for tail too wind ops.

 

- a miss-judged slip exit manouver can have the plane drifting across the runway oposite to where the nose was pionting in the slip.

 

- I am mindful of the aircraft structual limits, i.e. dont snap the aircraft into a full slip at cruise speed.

 

- When I get into a new aircraft, I first practice slips at altitude for some time.

 

The last time I got a new aircraft I had an aerobatic instructer along and fully tested all slow speed flight profiles.

 

- At a guess, about 90% of my slip aproachs were not needed as such. I just do slips constantly so to stay current.

 

.

 

 

[Yenn]

Good advice above, windward wing down leaves less work to do late in the approach. If you are really high why not stray downwind off the centreline and then you will have to fly more into wind later to regain it, giving a longer flight path to lose height in.

 

Personally I carry a slip down to about 20' if necessary and then bring it all back to into wind wing low etc. as I begin to flare. The lower you carry a slip the more apparent the rate of descent becomes.

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

Replying to Ian's post in respons to question by John McK.

 

Ian at one time you volunteered me as Forum Resident CFI and I asked for this to be removed as I had handed in my ratings and I did not want these forums open to nit-picking persons who wished to denigrate them by stating they were using a 'non instructor as a styled CFI'.

 

I have/am being active enough here and my information generally seems to go down well so I actually have no problem with being involved.

 

But here are some other thoughts.

 

A bit of fine tuning could take us a few steps ahead. For example this post is under General Discussion but does contain operational advice that may be of value to many - even if firming up their view point. But it could be missed, or some import lost, because it is 'general'.

 

Perhaps a practical way ahead would be to open another forum - maybe named General Ops Knowledge Questions. Put this beside the current 'Training & Student' forum, leaving the latter for specific 'Under Training' discussion matters but the former for existing pilots who still have areas of doubt or uncertainty (and who does not?).

 

But rather than a specific individual I would suggest a 'Panel' of expertise that may be drawn from.

 

We have several very experienced people here who articulate clearly and soundly and I do not believe membership of any such panel should be restricted to currently rated instructors.

 

For example I would be quite happy contributing with the likes of Farri (a most experienced ex CFI), Facthunter (who has a sound airlines 4 prop background as well as a multitude of experience on instructing in lighter types) Pelorous (who is allegedly not an instructor but beats most of them into the ground with his clear expositions) and there are a few others.

 

Any views?

 

Tony

 

 

[facthunter]

SLIPPING.

 

Into wind wing low is the most comfortable and cancels some or all of the crosswind (drift) effect. Getting the into wind wing UP when near the ground in a cross-wind situation is a definate no-no. Your ability to see the runway can be compromised, so you might see that as a determining factor because if you just do a screaming s/slip a bit out from the threshold, and don't keep an eye on the runway, you might be so successful at losing height ,that you don't make the end of the strip. Most people think that the sideslip should be discontinued at about 200', but circumstances may necessitate much lower in real situations,ie. where the strip is short and you have to land over a hill or trees. (or you get an unexpected thermal on late final).

 

If you want employ the sideslipping technique (which I for one have to, because my aircraft has no flaps) ensure that you employ the correct method, thoroughly understood and you are confident with your aircraft near the ground, and in good current practice (recency). Nev...

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I don't like the idea of a dedicated instructor who has the final say, so to speak. Even instructors can get it terribly wrong some times and their interpretations would be debated on many occasions. A symbol identifying instructors would be a good thing, but then again all posts must have a caveat and people need to read the product disclosure statement to determine what's right for them. (just like an advert for an insurance policy)

 

 

[facthunter]

Add.....?

 

Aaaaarrgh. Tony .What have you done?. Ok then add Mazda to the list,(and there are lots of others) but I think we learn from everybody. The thing here that I have observed is the broad agreement amongst the members that APPEAR to have a lot of background. I'm still learning, sometimes at a very rapid rate. When I post something on this forum, it is very conservative, as I don't want someone to take something very literally and come unstuck as a result, in reality I am a lot more radical..Nev..

 

 

[Shane]

It all depends on your initial crosswind compensation approach

 

If you are crabbing wings level and nose into wind (to the right) then side slip with the left wing forward

 

OR if you chose to point down the strip and have have the right wing low, then side slip with the right wing forward

 

This way when you stop the side slip you are back to your initial crosswind compensation attitude

 

Easy :thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest J430]

One post above, has some well intended but dangerous comments.

 

Shane

 

I would rethink that a little. Probably good idea to digest most of the posts above that are generally agreeing with each other.

 

Cheers

 

J:wave:

 

 

[djpacro]

As someone stated previously, I break the question into two separate parts:

 

Part A - losing height - nose crabbing into wind then drop the downwind wing for the reason of better visibility of the landing area. Reason, not concerned with aligning the fuselage with runway direction at this stage so, in my opinion, more comfortable. Deadstick so need to set sideslip angle to determine approach angle rather than to counteract xwind.

 

Once in the right place and right height then transition to:

 

Part B - the normal xwind landing technique with the wing down into wind.

 

 

[facthunter]

Situation.

 

The trouble with the written word is that it carries no intonation, no eye contact, no arm movements, no nudge ,nudge wink, wink etc. There could be a bit more examining of the other persons point of view to advantage. I have had responses to my posts where I am sure that the meaning has not come across because it hasn't been read carefully. I am very surprised sometimes how adamant some opinions are as expressed on this forum, and how silly they must appear in retrospect, but that will always happen. Pilots would not be pilots if they didn't have egos. You are all entitled to your views, but if you post them here, you should be prepared to defend them. Incorrect information can be dangerous, all kinds of people read these forums, and place a lot of faith in them.

 

Some years ago I was in a room and I happened to hear a discussion between an instructor and a pupil who was training to be an instructor. I was a little baffled about the advice given re handling of a DH 82 on the ground. I thought it was wrong ( I had a fair bit of time on the Tiger at that time) but I didn't say anything about it. 15 minutes later that aeroplane was on its nose, and I blame that bit of advice for that outcome.

 

I DON"T THINK THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO BE POLITICALLY CORRECT HERE. Ian knows what he bans, and unless I missread the scene, it is about bad language and insults predominantly. He takes the responsibility for this and who would want the job. I know he is ably assisted by the other moderators, but remember the saying, ONE SHIP ONE CAPTAIN. The buck stops somewhere, and it is with Ian. He explains what he has done and just imagine how difficult that would be, where you really can't tell ALL.

 

Keep COOL heads and appreciate what you have. Nev..

 

 

[poteroo]

Read the POH. Slips with flaps extended may not be recommended. IAS might well be significantly in error - often correlated to the aggressiveness of the slip.

 

If you are in such a position that you need to make a slipped approach @ more than 1000fpm - it's risky business - go round and set it up again.

 

Allow for the roundout and straightenup at least by 50 ft agl, more to start with for beginners. At high rates of descent, it's possible to misjudge things.

 

Remember that with any 15kt wind, there will be a fair gradient, especially with lots of adjacent high vegetation. You might arrive before being able to position the aircraft for landing.

 

cheers,

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi all,

 

Having had a stint in records management many years ago, Tony's suggestion of a forum specifically for flying issues out of GENERAL makes good logic.

 

One of the really great benefits of these forums are the safety oriented posts which benefit new and not so new pilots.....I'm for keeping them more specifically designated.

 

Cheers

 

JL

 

 

[Guest J430]

djpacro

 

Part B sounds fine, Part A is something you should reconsider.

 

And whats all this about dropping the downwind wing for visability, are all aeroplanes high wing?

 

J:wave:

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Hey all. Isn't this forum more appropriate for this sort of stuff?

 

Training & Students - Recreational Flying

 

I would not take anything at all as said on any forum as gospel. I would ask an instructor if in doubt. Isn't that the bottom line?