A question of side slipping

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

are all aeroplanes high wing?

All the good aeroplanes are high wing J430

 

 

[poteroo]

I have thought about the calls for instructors to be identified on these forums, and believe it would not be useful - unless the relevant experience of that instructor, in that particular subject, was also posted. This would be too unwieldly.

 

Agree with Darren Masters that the best location for all 'instructional' matters is the thread indicated.

 

cheers,

 

 

[facthunter]

Concepts.

 

Perhaps you could have "referees" or forum MENTORS, who could provide direction or finality should the need arise, (if the question is an important one. ie where safety is involved). I don't believe in a situation where any view from ANYONE should be accepted without challenge being available.

 

As for instructors indicating that they hold that position, I don't think it is that important one way or the other. They have attained a standard which is assessed on an annual basis, and their job is to train their students to a standard appropriate to the needs of the RAAus administrators, determined from time to time, and no doubt being the subject of some on-going discussion, and change, as time goes on and we evolve as an organisation.

 

There will be some ordinary instructors, and some excellent instructors, and everything in between. There are some excellent pilots who do not wish to be instructors as well, so how do you treat them? Or how do you recognise them ?

 

One way is by the quality of their contribution on this forum, and that takes time to assess. Nev...

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

We do not seem to be getting very far but maybe too far too quickly. My current view is that the Moderators should step in and excise all posts regarding “Forum Panels or Resident Instructors†and put them in a separate new thread of their devising – leaving this one to get on with it’s main topic! This particular topic may then be debated there in isolation.

 

 

Facthunter puts things clearly and well in his usual style. Motz comes in and raises some valid points, as have others. So can we take a look at the actual issues please?

 

 

This site is maturing rapidly and gaining more credence to the point that it is becoming a major information source. Extreme care has to be exercised here! It becomes a question of validity of information!

 

 

On one hand I am personally sick of people coming here and saying ‘take it to an instructor’ as if that would solve everything. How many of you have actually worked with them and know what they may be really like? Over the years I have met so many that I would not trust with a shopping trolley! The various facets of that situation are too complex to go into here. It is also dangerous ground because the movement that controls instructional standards (and therefore the instructors themselves) have to retain almost total credibility or the whole pack of cards will fall apart.

 

 

At the same time I am weary and alarmed at very plausible replies/opinions that are totally wrong or misleading. You generally do not know who the person is or what their background is. But this is a discussion and debating place so anyone should feel free to express their opinion.

 

 

Many of the questions posed here are by people who are unsure. They are unsure because they may not have been taught correctly and are bright enough to realise that, but eager enough to keep their backsides out of a sling or simply be better pilots – so they ask because they feel they can so ask without being belittled or otherwise ridiculed.

 

 

Let me take you into the instructional arena briefly. One central facet of Principles & Methods of Instructing (PMI) is that most people will only retain less that 30% of what they have just had explained to them or seen within 30 minutes of the delivery. Most of that is what they are interested in and captures their imagination – it may not be what they actually need. This further dilutes with the transfer from the short term memory to the long term memory that they will then draw upon later as part of their ‘experience base’.

 

 

The need for qualification of information on these forums is therefore of great importance, but doing so without inhibiting anyone from expressing opinion or asking questions.

 

 

This brings us to forum control and both Ian and his team of Moderators are constantly under the slammers from this sort of thing as they are not all powerful and all knowledgeable.

 

 

I take my hat off to Ian for his approach. He, and his team, moderate on language, demeanour, attacking of other people etc. They DO NOT moderate on political persuasions, viewpoint basis (unless offensive) nor technical content of replies (unless obviously off the planet) unless breaking the laid down rules of these forums. That is the way it should be!

 

 

I have personally suggested a ‘Panel’ of known persons who have contributed soundly to these forums and who could be identified as such. Other people should not be barred from joining but perhaps everyone concerned should lodge with Ian their credentials (which may be very considerable) in order to participate in that capacity.

 

 

This will not be perfect but takes us a few steps ahead to making qualified information more accessible. The situation can be refined as it turns out.

 

 

But I do feel that any such forums that have any form of ‘information credence’ implied with them should have a sticky up front stating clearly that the content is ‘opinion only’.

 

 

Aye

 

 

Tony

 

 

[farri]

Resident Instructor.

 

Ian,

 

Regarding your thread, on,Forum Resident Instructor, wouldn`t there be a liability issue there,for anyone taking this on?.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Tony, it might be best for you to point out where you beleive some posters have got it wrong about sliping.

 

On the gist of your post re sliping, I think learning to slip an aircraft is more a hands on learning experience. Talking about it be one thing, but actualy going out and doing it is really the only way to fully understand it and how it affects the actual aircraft you fly - as you are aware,they all slip slightly diferently.

 

I agree with your comment about the limited abilities of some of the instructers out there, I have writen about it myself in a thread last year. The fact that we can get instructers that get a 'surprise' doing a basic training manouver concerns me.

 

I do still see benifit in a pilot who is unsure of a particular part of their flying utilizing an experienced instructer to gain proficency. The slip is mostly used on final approch, which is a very unforgiving place to get it wrong.

 

 

[facthunter]

Floaty plane.

 

M Wreford, the Tecnam echo has a very effective flap, especially when fully extended. If you do a sideslip (clean) it will probably float forever if you go into the flare with a margin of speed sufficient to give you adequate control out of the sideslip. If you are sideslipping with full flap I would advise against it as I have never seen any aircraft that washes speed off as quickly as this does with full flap and no power on. Nev..

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

M Wreford, the Tecnam echo has a very effective flap, especially when fully extended. If you do a sideslip (clean) it will probably float forever if you go into the flare with a margin of speed sufficient to give you adequate control out of the sideslip. If you are sideslipping with full flap I would advise against it as I have never seen any aircraft that washes speed off as quickly as this does with full flap and no power on. Nev..

G'day Nev,

 

that's absolutely right. My daughter and I went out and did 6 or 7 practice forced landings yesterday and when we came back I did a full flap approach just for a change. I don't often use full flaps on the P92 and I remember thinking just how much drag full flaps gives you. You need at least 3000 rpm to keep the thing flying a half decent approach.

 

I recall going into Bendigo one day - full flaps landing into about 20 knots on rwy 17. All was well until over the threshold when the airspeed went from 60 to 40 knots in the blink of an eye. I applied full power and went for the go around and found myself stuck on the back of the curve. Not accelerating, not climbing, indeed not going anywhere real fast. Only getting rid of some flap got the aircraft moving.

 

For a "floaty" aircraft it comes down very fast with full flaps. It can also be made to come down at 1000 to 1500fpm with flaps 15 and a good side slip. I watch my daughter flying it and she instinctively uses little bits of slip to get herself back down on slope if she gets a little high. Very pretty to watch - too pretty to have been learned from me!

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

HPD - I am not about to 'pick on' anyone - they are all entitled to their own opinons. I was a little surprised though that there were so many interpretations of what I believed would now be standard knowledge and training in basic application (ie slip into wind) which certainly may then be applied and refined to the behaviour of an individual aircraft type.

 

Tony

 

 

[Guest brentc]

As part of aircraft certification it must be able to 'fly' with full flap expended. If you find that the Tecnam won't 'fly' with full flap you probably need more forward stick and more power. Full flap go-arounds should be taught in the syllabus so no nasty surprises are experienced like you have demonstrated in Bendigo Mike so I hope that was covered by your instructor. Full flap go-arounds in a Cessna are a whole other story.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

G'day Brent,

 

the P92 will fly with full flaps in normal circumstances and I've done many go arounds like that. However in this circumstance the wind shear was somewhere in the order of 30 knots +. It went from 20 knots or so on the nose to zero and then immediately to a tail wind of 10+ knots. That's a big ask for any a/c operating in our speed range to overcome instantaneously - ~50% of your airspeed. The full flaps position is very much a drag flaps position, the aircraft was flying level, not accelerating as it battled to regain airspeed and coping with a big dollop of drag at very low speed. Getting some of that flap off removes drag without increasing the stall speed and so allows the airspeed to increase substantially.

 

Interesting thing is that it was a classic back of the curve situation and I've never been able to induce that behaviour in the P92 again.

 

So not a case of a full flaps go around being a surprise, rather a combination of circumstances.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[djpacro]

djpacroPart B sounds fine, Part A is something you should reconsider.

I have reconsidered J430. Happy to discuss over a coffee at the airport or over a glass of red wine sometime. I'll never be able to write enough words here to be equivalent to that chat but here's a few more words anyway.

If there is no need to sideslip to lose height then Part A is simply crabbing into wind and I'd transition to Part B when appropriate. Given that we're doing a deadstick landing in a xwind and I feel the need to sideslip to lose height at some stage then I'd continue to leave the nose into wind and simply apply rudder in that direction and drop the downwind wing - maintains the crab into wind and loses height - lost the height I chose then back to the straight crab.

 

Was riding along with a grey-haired instructor yesterday who did exactly this. Later, I was with another experienced instructor and I flew the same method. In both cases we'd reduced previously reduced power to idle (no flaps) and still high.

 

 

[Guest J430]

As someone stated previously, I break the question into two separate parts:

Part A - losing height - nose crabbing into wind then drop the downwind wing for the reason of better visibility of the landing area. Reason, not concerned with aligning the fuselage with runway direction at this stage so, in my opinion, more comfortable. Deadstick so need to set sideslip angle to determine approach angle rather than to counteract xwind.

 

Once in the right place and right height then transition to:

 

Part B - the normal xwind landing technique with the wing down into wind.

Part A: You state dropping the downwind wing for visibility, yet go on to say you are not worried about runway alignment.....:ah_oh: I sure hope you never have to sideslip at YBAF or YSBK etc. That is NOT a very wise idea.

 

Now the idea of the slip in the first place is to get rid of height, one assumes that this is to be done close to the ground, so why on earth would you want to go from cross controls in one sense to complete opposite in a short time frame and close to the ground? i_dunno Recipe for a prang! You are inviting a stronger gust to turn your slip into a roll into the ground on the downwind side of the runway where you have NIL chances to recover.

 

Now I am not keen on a willy wagging competition but I posted my thoughts and then felt a safety issue was present so I consulted 2 very experienced people, both CPL's, instructors, one with ATPL and aerobatic's and survived many thousands of hours of PNG flying, doing all sorts of un-natural things to everything from C180's to Bandits and Twin Otters. I kid you not, when this particular guy says "Don't Do That" you listen, because he can usually recount how folk who have tried have died. I have seen his photo album. When you have lost about 40 mates who were trained way better than most of us, myself included, you just have to have some faith. The other similar stuff in NZ where violent X-winds are the norm.

 

Remember we are talking X-Wind not a nice calm day where you can happily slip either way at low level.

 

Sure you may get away with it some days, but some days are diamonds, some............

 

J:wave:

 

 

[djpacro]

J430, I believe there's one misunderstanding and one incorrect assumption there.

 

By alignment with the runway, I meant the important alignment of the fuselage axis with the runway centreline for touchdown. Further back, at higher altitude on the approach we're crabbing into wind so therefore the fuselage axis and the runway centre-line are not aligned. Perhaps I should've written more words and used the word parallel somewhere.

 

You assume that

 

this is to be done close to the ground

Nope, assuming that we have the same understanding of what is "close to the ground".Enough words from me, I'll renew the invite for discussion - perhaps when I visit Brisbane in June.

 

Maybe this helps

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXaM2pGnVXg

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Im surprised nobody has pionted it out yet, but there are a few more uses for slips then just loosing height on final.

 

- If Im flying a high/tight circuit to retain glide distance from the landing field, I may start a curved slip aproach from a down wind position. Have an engine failure, come out of the slip - no worries.

 

- A side benifit of the higher/steeper sliped aproach on final is you present a far higher visibility to following aircraft - That alone may be why a slow aircraft would slip any time it is in the curcuit with faster aircraft.

 

- Sliping can also be used for speed reduction. When operating with faster aircraft you can keep your speed up on final and slip to slow down - always mindful of structual speed limits.

 

- Something I keep in mind doing a slip is where are the fuel out lets in the fuel tank.

 

- And some aircraft shouldnt be slipped at all.

 

Practice slipping with your instructer.

 

 

[Flyingphot]

Wow! This thread certainly produced some differing ideas. I have done a lot of testing since I first asked the question and find that the most consistent result comes from slipping into the wind- ie. into-wind-wing down.

 

I use sideslip more for steep approaches over obstacles into a mates short down hill strip and hold the slip almost to the ground - at which time I would not like my into-wind-wing to be high.

 

That said I have gained a lot of insight out of th responses to date and will, as far as safety permits, try out most variations in various conditions to see if there is a right way. Some one in an earlier said all aircraft slip differently. I think so far I am finding the same aicraft will slip differently for each set of conditions.

 

The one thing that should never slip is the enjoyment of flying.

 

Bill.

 

 

[djpacro]

Enough words from me ....

... way back then, this is what I was trying to describe:

Not a lot of crosswind so the angles are not great.

 

During the initial part of the approach, if I wanted to lose some height I would've dropped the right wing (with appropriate use of left rudder) some more.

 

Closer to the ground the nose is swung around to align the fuselage with the runway and the left wing is lowered as appropriate for a crosswind landing.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

looks like the only way to see the runway as well. looks like fun.

 

 

[kaz3g]

The Auster is relatively light, and has a large wingspan (36') and a good glide ratio for a GA aircraft. It therefore tends to be somewhat reluctant to come down and put its feet on the ground when you want it to.

 

To help the driver, it has flaps bigger than barn doors that hang straight down. It also sideslips beautifully but runs out of rudder well before aileron.

 

If attempting to lose XS height on final, I usually lower the into wind wing which gives me the greatest control especially if it is gusty.

 

If just(?) dealing with a x-wind, I use a combination of the crab and into wind wing to get me there. I also land on the extreme upwind side of the strip if necessary because the x-wind component is just 9 knots and groundloops are just a moment's distraction away.

 

Three points to ponder:

 

1. Beware fuel starvation should a strainer in a wing tank become dry (especially if the tank you are using is the downhill one - PA28's come to mind);
    
    
   
2. Watch your airspeed and height because instrument fluctuations can occur due a static vent on the fuselage being blanked; and
    
    
   
3. Beware loss of elevator authority in those aircraft where the flaps interfere with airflow over the tail (C172's for example).
    
    
   

 

 

 

On my Auster the fuel is stored in the fuse - a firewall tank and a belly tank - but some have wing tanks. And the elevators are very effective despite the humungous flaps.

 

kaz

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Check the POH first before doing sideslips with flaps extended. Some GA types are prohibited from them with flaps out.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Birds side-slip to avoid collision with plane:

 

 

 

[facthunter]

pretty questionablle whether they sideslip or bank and dive. A sideslip is a pretty crude thing aerodynamically. I think birds are much more sophisticated with their flying techniques. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

One of the good things about a sideslip is that you can instantly get rid of the slip and you will have full ability to conduct a go around. No worries about flaps having to be lifted slowly. I find it easy to get rid of a slip and drop the opposite wing for landing, but having once failed to retract the flaps on a C150 and dodging between the chimney pots at Grovedale, while wondering why it wouldn't accelerate, I prefer slips to flaps.

 

 

[Yenn]

Grovedale. June to October 1967.

 

Aub Coote was CFI and Bill Ricketts and Alan Reid were instructors. They both joined the airlines and were great instructors even though you could say they were building time.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

One of the good things about a sideslip is that you can instantly get rid of the slip and you will have full ability to conduct a go around. No worries about flaps having to be lifted slowly. I find it easy to get rid of a slip and drop the opposite wing for landing, but having once failed to retract the flaps on a C150 and dodging between the chimney pots at Grovedale, while wondering why it wouldn't accelerate, I prefer slips to flaps.

We just did mods on our two Technam echo's to reinforce the vert stabs after one showed evidence of cracking- the older one(4500 hrs). we summise that the likely cause was side slipping during PFL practice. Sideslips do place a great deal of stress on the airframe. Consider this when you choose to make this method the rule rather than the exception- especially if you have flaps.