My spies tell me Jabiru has been sold

[Jabiru7252]

23 hours ago, Kenlsa said:

Mick visited Gawler on Saturday and was part way through an Australia wide trip speaking to pilots and answering questions. I had to leave early but he said:

 

230 and 430 will be factory manufactured at 760kg

170 will continue and 230 @ 600 as well

Gen 3 parts will be manufactured for all that have that engine can relax

working on a Gen 5 engine BUT it MAY be electric

will include analog instruments for those that want them to keep everything simple for people like me

he is a pilot and so is his daughter 

all the staff are remaining

he is the MD at a major military supplier but can not divulge any more details about the products.

 

 I Had to leave then but Jabiru 7252 then arrived so may be able to shed some light on any further detail.

 

Sounds all good to me

 

 

The question about getting parts like distributors, rotor buttons, ignition coils, spark plugs and leads etc. was raised. There was the mention by a club member that these parts may become hard to source as engines become more 'modern'. The very thing about Jabiru engines is their simplicity, when we start getting engines with electronic fuel injected whizz bang technology we start to lose the ability to service and repair. We have all seen it in the automotive industry, home appliance industry etc. God help us if AI ever becomes involved. 

[Carbon Canary]

Some glass screens are configurable to depict the info as analogue gauges.

[tillmanr]

Bad luck if it blue screens. Steam gauges won’t all die simultaneously. 

[spacesailor]

Bluetooth to a mobile phone or tablet will surprise most oldies here.

I was shown a " Samsung Galaxy " phone ready to connect to the paired aircraft .

So if someone steals that aircraft how will it be flown without its instruments.  That are at home with the pilot .

spacesailor

[facthunter]

True . They are mostly independent. Gyro reliant instruments are hideously expensive to repair and often topple when gimbal limits are reached. Electronic ones may well be cheaper and should have a self monitoring FAIL sign.   Nev

[spacesailor]

But they Do fail ! .

The ' hand ' fell off my ' altimeter ',  ( possibly children's fingers overturned a knob ) .

also a double temp gauge stopped working on one side only , but is it a serviceable gauge for a single cylinder .

spacesailor

 

[onetrack]

If you've ever pulled a steam gauge apart and tried to fix it, you would probably be aware the average steam gauge has relatively cheap and poor construction, and I wouldn't trust them to any serious level, either.

 

Of course, I'm not talking about "proper" certified aviation gauges built to an expensive standard and which have been QC'ed to the nth degree.

 

But a lot of RA flyers appear to be reliant on automotive steam gauges, and the fact that the vast majority of these are manufactured in locations such as China, India, and Mexico, should be enough warning to not become 100% reliant on them.

 

I doubt whether glass screens are commonly failure-prone, I would expect the bigger problem with them is wiring and connector faults.

[turboplanner]

24 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

Bluetooth to a mobile phone or tablet will surprise most oldies here.

I was shown a " Samsung Galaxy " phone ready to connect to the paired aircraft .

So if someone steals that aircraft how will it be flown without its instruments.  That are at home with the pilot .

spacesailor

Samsung Galaxy is just an Android phone. Not suitable for flying an aircraft.

[Carbon Canary]

48 minutes ago, onetrack said:

If you've ever pulled a steam gauge apart and tried to fix it, you would probably be aware the average steam gauge has relatively cheap and poor construction, and I wouldn't trust them to any serious level, either.

 

Of course, I'm not talking about "proper" certified aviation gauges built to an expensive standard and which have been QC'ed to the nth degree.

 

But a lot of RA flyers appear to be reliant on automotive steam gauges, and the fact that the vast majority of these are manufactured in locations such as China, India, and Mexico, should be enough warning to not become 100% reliant on them.

 

I doubt whether glass screens are commonly failure-prone, I would expect the bigger problem with them is wiring and connector faults.

One of my first jobs was working in a metrology lab where we calibrated bourdon tube pressure gauges. I was surprised how basic they were the first time I saw one opened up. We had a set of standard weights for calibration purposes, but no real idea of how to tweak the tube, springs and cogs etc. We just kept fiddling until the gauge dial pointer matched up to the applied pressure. Dare I mention, the lab was NATA approved and we issued a certified calibration certificate !! 
 

Separately, glass screens don’t need a vac pump - that has to be an advantage !!

[Area-51]

🤔

 

My plane has a $1.80 mounted glass cockpit...  

 

When i turn left or right the fluid level line changes.

 

When i fly too fast the lid blows off

 

When i fly too slow nothing changes but i can drink the contents and feel young and dumb again as everything turns to crap

 

When i fly too high the gauge just explodes. 😕🤷🏻‍♂️

[Jabiru7252]

I may be wrong but I understand that if you have a 'glass cockpit' you must have ASI and ALT as steam gauges as well, or have a backup glass screen.

[skippydiesel]

11 hours ago, Jabiru7252 said:

I may be wrong but I understand that if you have a 'glass cockpit' you must have ASI and ALT as steam gauges as well, or have a backup glass screen.

Well I dont - its all glass but there is a degree of "back up" in that I have independent electronic instruments eg iPad, back up GPS, both with own battery supply and transponder,   that combined show direction, altitude & ground speed. I am considering the fitting of steam gauge ASI just to be sure.

[skippydiesel]

13 hours ago, onetrack said:

 

 

But a lot of RA flyers appear to be reliant on automotive steam gauges, and the fact that the vast majority of these are manufactured in locations such as China, India, and Mexico, should be enough warning to not become 100% reliant on them.

 

I was one - Flew for 10+ years using Speco engine gauges - they were great. In that time I replaced one gauge - no pain in the pocket.

Chinese ASI, ALT, Compass, VS - US slip ball (tilt gauge) - all good.

US transponder - cost a fortune to replace.

Australian transceiver - Great  (don't actually know it was made in AU)

 

The reality is that for Day VFR, all the certified stuff is way over specified.

Edited November 21, 2023 by skippydiesel

[kgwilson]

Analogue ASI, VSI, Altimeter and Compass have the advantage of not requiring any power, gyros or anything else to operate

[sfGnome]

Flying with glass for the first time ever over the last couple of months with glass in front of me and steam gauges on the passenger side, I found myself looking “over there” for all my speed and altitude information. I know that I’ll learn to read the ribbon indicators just as easily as I learned to read the round dials, but it’s not as intuitive as I expected it would be. 

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

Analogue ASI, VSI, Altimeter and Compass have the advantage of not requiring any power, gyros or anything else to operate

True however my Dynon has a battery backup that will get me to the nearest airfield (& then some).

 

The big advantage is weight - sooooo much ligter.

[spenaroo]

18 hours ago, Jabiru7252 said:

The question about getting parts like distributors, rotor buttons, ignition coils, spark plugs and leads etc. was raised. There was the mention by a club member that these parts may become hard to source as engines become more 'modern'. The very thing about Jabiru engines is their simplicity, when we start getting engines with electronic fuel injected whizz bang technology we start to lose the ability to service and repair. We have all seen it in the automotive industry, home appliance industry etc. God help us if AI ever becomes involved. 

as technology changes so does the generation.

take a car to a normal mechanic and see if they can do points and carburetor tuning.
they are much more familiar with pugging a scan gauge into the OBD2 port and reading/clearing fault codes.
they find fuel injection far easier to work with and repair.

I think that aviation has stalled with technology for a long time, and is only now starting to have the generational shift.
and I think its simply down to my generation aren't going to accept points, carburetors and steam gauges.

And the guys who are buying the points and distributors probably aren't going to be continuously buying new aircraft.

[facthunter]

Stuff you can't easily diagnose can't be better in my books.  It's a total flying experience when it's basic. You'd sort out/ fault find  A Gypsy major in 5 minutes flat if it was running bad. Look at all the issues some of you people have with the latest stuff? ' You're not going supersonic , Pressurised or with all the flaps, spoilers  costs complexity of a Lear jet. and never will as a pilot of the corner of the aviation spectrum we inhabit. You can't build a fool proof motor . and the more disconnect you have with it the more likely it is to surprise you in a bad way. Nev

[skippydiesel]

Spenaroo- It seems to be there is not so much " fuel injection far easier to work with and repair." as replace the module/part. Repair no longer means what  it used to.

 

I have a Ford Ranger - great car BUT the LED lights in the instrument consul are not repairable/replaceable (at least by me). There are about 6 each around the tacho/kph, two have gone crazy, flash all the time - in the past it would have been 10c x 2 incandescent bulbs & 10 minutes max, to replace & good for the next 5-10 years. Now it's about $700 for the whole consul & may be a computer up date (I think I have a way round this bit) no labour $ as will fit myself. The care is coming up to 200,000km - I am advised that I should replace the injectors, not recondition REPLACE!!!! My last diesel - $100/injector for a recondition/recalibrate, Ranger $1K+++/injector & a brain (computer update) on top of that.

 

Technology can be wonderful but it's not always such a big improvement

[turboplanner]

30 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Spenaroo- It seems to be there is not so much " fuel injection far easier to work with and repair." as replace the module/part. Repair no longer means what  it used to.

 

I have a Ford Ranger - great car BUT the LED lights in the instrument consul are not repairable/replaceable (at least by me). There are about 6 each around the tacho/kph, two have gone crazy, flash all the time - in the past it would have been 10c x 2 incandescent bulbs & 10 minutes max, to replace & good for the next 5-10 years. Now it's about $700 for the whole consul & may be a computer up date (I think I have a way round this bit) no labour $ as will fit myself. The care is coming up to 200,000km - I am advised that I should replace the injectors, not recondition REPLACE!!!! My last diesel - $100/injector for a recondition/recalibrate, Ranger $1K+++/injector & a brain (computer update) on top of that.

 

Technology can be wonderful but it's not always such a big improvement

Google is your friend if you want to remain rich. In some cases those flashing lights just need to be cancelled; the lights are used for multiple messages, sometimes very minor, but helpful. You can buy diagnostics equipment and learn it, but often the manufacturer has provided a sequence,like turn the key off for 30 seconds, turn it on, turn it off after 2 seconds, turn it on and the light has been reset (I just made that one up). There is no point in replacing the console if the lights are telling you the truth and you have waterlogged, muddy or fractured ABS in the left front wheel etc.

 

Get some quotes on reconditioning your injectors - (let's say we leave out removal and replacing). They are usually dismantled, and Ultrasonic cleaned. That brings them back to glowing metal but doesn't bring them back to as new dimensions with sharp edges etc. Then they need to be bench tested and adjusted for the correct output and performance. In quotes I got the reconditioning cost was about 75% of new cost on injectors bought in the US, and you get all that as new mileage.

[facthunter]

The normal kind of heavy ute. Chev Dodge Ford etc would have needed a reconditioned engine by that ,mileage and plenty of tune ups Plugs and points. They put out puny power compared to this new stuff and  just drink fuel. No  power steering and pretty ordinary brakes. You just wouldn't drive one these days.  Nev

[facthunter]

A lot of injectors are not designed to be repaired . Ones that are, would be more costly  They are extremely precision. Often you let them go till they show problems and "replace".  Some of those little lights are on "Modules" that have to be overhauled/ replaced and are part of the management of the air-conditioning etc. What motor is in your Ranger?  Nev 

[onetrack]

A little thread drift - but re the Ford Ranger diesel injectors - the latest common rail injectors utilise what they call DLC (Diamond-Like Carbon) coating. This is a super-hard coating designed to resist and reduce wear between close-fitting components that move against each other - such as injector pintle valves in injector bodies.

Many modern injectors are going over to disc-type injector valves rather than pintle style - but regardless, all these components do suffer wear after 120,000 - 150,000kms - even despite DLC coatings.

 

Disc holes become enlarged with extremely high injection pressures and pintle seats wear in a similar fashion, all aided by the fact that clearances between injector components have halved with common rail systems - typically down to 0.01mm as against 0.02mm previously.

 

It's all made worse by tiny rust and dirt particles (yes they do get through filters, albeit in tiny dimensions), and tiny amounts of water, making the high-pressure injected diesel, abrasive.

Toyota and Isuzu actually recommend injector replacement at 100,000kms. I think that's a worse case scenario, but in my experience, diesel injectors in CR systems really do decline in performance in a noticeable manner after 160,000 - 180,000kms.

 

There are two choices when you can't stomach Ford pricing on injectors. They're virtually all made by Bosch anyway, so you find an aftermarket source for Bosch injectors to suit Ford.

eBay is usually worth a look for Bosch injectors, you can even find NOS injectors on there. I've sold NOS injectors for Nissan on eBay, I picked them up as mining company surplus, brand new in original boxes.

 

It's important to ensure you have the correct part number or cross-reference for your injectors though, because there are often many variations in part numbers and fitment - and then there are "upgraded" injector part numbers too, as improvements are made.

 

The second choice is to install low km injectors from a wrecked vehicle. These are commonly available from diesel injection specialists, and are normally guaranteed for 3 mths and usually cost about $200 - $250 each. 

 

There is one more important item in a diesel CR system - there is a relief valve on the rear of the rail that holds the high pressure in the rail when the engine is both stopped and running.

When this relief valve starts to fail (and yes, they fail with age, and corrosion), the pressure in the rail drops quickly after engine shutdown, then when you go to start the engine again, the high pressure fuel pump has to generate the required pressure to get the injectors to fire up.

 

This rail fuel pressure loss can take up to 10-15 seconds of cranking to get up to the required pressure level, and this is not only annoying, it is hard on starters and batteries.

The relief valve, once again, is a Bosch item, readily available new from eBay and at a cost of normally around $75 - $80.

It normally takes all of 10 mins to fit this relief valve, it's easy enough to access, as it's mounted high on the engine and doesn't require major component dismantling.

 

There's plenty of videos on YooToob that offer good explanations and trouble-shooting on Ranger fuel injection - none of it is rocket science, but it's just a bit more complex than the simple old mechanical fuel injection.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by onetrack

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

The normal kind of heavy ute. Chev Dodge Ford etc would have needed a reconditioned engine by that ,mileage and plenty of tune ups Plugs and points. They put out puny power compared to this new stuff and  just drink fuel. No  power steering and pretty ordinary brakes. You just wouldn't drive one these days.  Nev

Current Ute models, Australian specifications:

Chevrolet Silverado HD:

   Engine: Duramax 6.6 Litre diesel, 350 kW  (470 bhp), 1,322 Nm

   Transmission: 10 speed auto

   Braked Towing capacity - 4.5 tonnes

 

Ford F-150

  Engine: 3.5 Litre, twin turbo V6 diesel, 298 kW, 678 Nm

  Transmission: 10 speed auto 

  Braked Towing capacity - 4.5 tonnes

 

Ram 1500 Big Horn

Engine: 5.7 litre, V8 Hemi petrol, 291 kW, 556 Nm

Transmission: 10 speed auto

Braked Towing capacity - 4.5 tonnes

 

Ram Laramie 2500

Engine: Cummins Diesel 6.7 Litre, 276 kW, 1152 Nm

Transmission: 10 speed auto

Braked Towing capacity up to 8 tonnes

 

All have full electronics.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by turboplanner

[facthunter]

I was comparing OLD stuff, Turbs. You quoted my post but obviously didn't read it.   Nev