My spies tell me Jabiru has been sold

[turboplanner]

15 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

The new concept is ICE not hybrid.

 

[facthunter]

The new concept is the old one? Toyota have been pushing non external charge hybrids. Carry a lot of weight for a small "electric" range and all the disadvantages  of a drive and engine.  Nev

[turboplanner]

11 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The new concept is the old one? Toyota have been pushing non external charge hybrids. Carry a lot of weight for a small "electric" range and all the disadvantages  of a drive and engine.  Nev

No, the new concept is HICE powered by Hydrogen gas i.e. not fuel cell and not hybrid, although they continue to roll out the hybrid models they promised two elections ago. Key points are tooling and development cost are minimal since the engine is Virtually CO2 free and meets our Particulate emission levels. The only development work to be done is to reduce NOx levels slightly. The announcement was just a few days ago.

[facthunter]

Then why didn't you say so in the first instance? A lot of commentators have thought this may be their  aim, but hydrogen has a few unsolved problems. Like leaking, High pressures and making things brittle.    Nev

[turboplanner]

44 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Then why didn't you say so in the first instance? A lot of commentators have thought this may be their  aim, but hydrogen has a few unsolved problems. Like leaking, High pressures and making things brittle.    Nev

I provided a specific link of the Toyota Australian announcement; here it is again:

   https://www.goauto.com.au/news/toyota/hiace/hydrogen/toyota-explains-hot-hydrogen-tech-advantages/2023-11-14/92417.html

 

It was a very significant announcement of the direction they are going to take from and as I mentioned came from their Commercial Vehicle Chief Engineer and their Australian senior manager of vehicle evaluation.

 

The Chief Engineer outlined the development to date so you can see what they have been addressing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Toyota's direction has been criticised by a lot of Auto Industry Commentary.  Their spokesperson may not be the best source at this point in time. The emphasis of their advertising has attracted attention also. This Is not my opinion. I'm only the messenger.. But I'll get shot anyway.  Nev

[Cooko]

7 hours ago, BrendAn said:

How do you figure that. 

I had a good look at pictures of that prime mover from the driver's side on the internet and compared it to the video footage from the car driving past. I noticed a shiny box in front of the driven wheel which is not present in the video. I also noticed an apparent difference in the hubcaps of the driven wheels and finally i saw photos of firefighters trying to hose down the fire. You could say I was pretty certain. I guess I was mistaken.

[BrendAn]

6 minutes ago, Cooko said:

I had a good look at pictures of that prime mover from the driver's side on the internet and compared it to the video footage from the car driving past. I noticed a shiny box in front of the driven wheel which is not present in the video. I also noticed an apparent difference in the hubcaps of the driven wheels and finally i saw photos of firefighters trying to hose down the fire. You could say I was pretty certain. I guess I was mistaken.

i assumed they just had the one electric truck on trial but there must be a few of them.

so whats your point , are you saying the truck on fire was not electric. and what did the firefighters have to do with it apart from fighting the fire. 

[BrendAn]

the norwegian goverment seem to think hydrogen is the way to go.  they have been working on the hydrogen highway concept for a while now.

Edited November 29, 2023 by BrendAn

[FlyBoy1960]

6 hours ago, turboplanner said:

15 hours ago, aro said:

Regenerative braking is key to their efficiency.

How well does that work on the outer suburban and highway cycle?

Show me a highway in ANY city that is not stop and start, i would say they are perfect for this use.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Toyota's direction has been criticised by a lot of Auto Industry Commentary.  Their spokesperson may not be the best source at this point in time. The emphasis of their advertising has attracted attention also. This Is not my opinion. I'm only the messenger.. But I'll get shot anyway.  Nev

The primary criticism has been that Toyota has said it's not marketing EV as a primary product.

You have to remember that EV didn't start yesterday in Japan; there was EV product in Japan in the early 1980s. I was nearly run over by one silently turning left in Tokyo. I drove four different electric trucks in Tokyo in the mid 1990s and am on the record as saying they had the performance of a 5 litre V8 petrol.

 

The problems have been cost, durability, infastructure, range, excessive CO2 output during production of material and parts and platform development cost.

 

In that link you are not reading the usual prublic relations spokesperson positioning; that's the Chief Engineer saying what works and what they can't achieve just yet in HICE.

 

[RFguy]

Taking into account the cost of filling a battery at night from the mains.... and what it costs to run a hybrid

Battery costs at the moment essentially means that if you buy an  330km range electric, compared to a hybrid,  you are pre paying your first 12,500 litres of fuel, roughly prepaying your first 265,000 km in a hybrid ( 15 years ?) . 

given it costs about $5.50 per 100km for the electric (home charge) , over the same 265,000km of hybrid car, you are goign to fork out an additional $15000 of electricity. over 10-15 years, additional maintenance of the hybrid is likely to be about that in services compared to the electric.   of course at some point the battery will die !! and ten now the electric car is really, really expensive !!!!

So , small battery electric for city daily use makes good sense right now, but payback on the large battery EVs seems nonsense.

so, Toyota's strategy of the hybrid is good right now me thinks, just not explained to the publix or pundits
 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by RFguy

[turboplanner]

..

Edited November 29, 2023 by turboplanner

[kasper]

A question.

IF you accept that ICE with hydrocarbon fuels from the ground are not going to be the future you have options of:

1. chemical battery/electric

2. fuel cell/electric

3. Hydrogen ICE

 

Which one would you think are likely to win as the emergent power in the lighter end of aviation?

 

All three options have issues and are better suited to some use over other.  BUT we will have to chose sooner rather than later given the way the world is moving.

 

Legacy hydrocarbon ICE will become increasingly expensive to run on fuel costs and less supported by manufacturers so something 'other' will emerge.

 

Yes, you can use solar electric + CO2 + pressure + catalyst to create a non-dead dinosaur hydrocarbon fuel that may be a possible replacement for from the fuels currently being burnt in ICE.  And yes, these are carbon neutral when burnt because the carbon in that fuel came from CO2 - though the carbon embedded in the infrastructure to create it is large.  Oh and the cost per litre is not like dead dinosaur petrol and diesel.

 

[pmccarthy]

We have one Toyota hybrid and will trade it on another ordered for next year. Great performance, low fuel consumption, good resale. What's not to like?

[facthunter]

The Non PHEV is not the vehicle of the future according to the majority of motor Vehicle industry commentators. Pure electric is almost maintenance free and a hybrid has the worst of both with a very small advantage for carrying a fair bit of extra weight to actually produce about 50 Kms of range.  You could recombine H2 with carbon from somewhere. (reconstituted hydrocarbon  fuel) but not using things like Coal.  Nev. 

[BrendAn]

10 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The Non PHEV is not the vehicle of the future according to the majority of motor Vehicle industry commentators. Pure electric is almost maintenance free and a hybrid has the worst of both with a very small advantage for carrying a fair bit of extra weight to actually produce about 50 Kms of range.  You could recombine H2 with carbon from somewhere. (reconstituted hydrocarbon  fuel) but not using things like Coal.  Nev. 

virgins first transatlantic flight on clean fuel was completed today i think. should be on the news tonight. 787 on bio fuel

[turboplanner]

18 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The Non PHEV is not the vehicle of the future according to the majority of motor Vehicle industry commentators. Pure electric is almost maintenance free and a hybrid has the worst of both with a very small advantage for carrying a fair bit of extra weight to actually produce about 50 Kms of range.  You could recombine H2 with carbon from somewhere. (reconstituted hydrocarbon  fuel) but not using things like Coal.  Nev. 

The Non PHEV only saves a token amount of CO2 at the expense of dual power systems, dual drives etc so greater coefficient of friction, smaller engine working harder.  Electric is not maintenance free, just as electronics have become a persistent ICE cost with ABS failures, multiple engine light issues etc which rack up hours of service and the hours are multiplied by all the crap you have to take off the get to the faulty part which is usually an $8.00 plastic item. PHEV was primarily brought in to Europe to qualify for the magic Zero Emission Targets. I do a yearly analysis on EV and was surprised to see market share on HEV falling; didn't find the reasons.

Edited November 29, 2023 by turboplanner

[kasper]

10 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

The Non PHEV only saves a token amount of CO2 at the expense of dual power systems, dual drives etc so greater coefficient of friction, smaller engine working harder.  Electric is not maintenance free, just as electronics have become a persistent ICE cost with ABS failures, multiple engine light issues etc which rack up hours of service and the hours are multiplied by all the crap you have to take off the get to the faulty part which is usually an $8.00 plastic item. PHEV was primarily brought in to Europe to qualify for the magic Zero Emission Targets. I do a yearly analysis on EV and was surprised to see market share on HEV falling; didn't find the reasons.

One of the BIG drivers of the reduction in HEV is that many countries in Europe have legislated TRUE zero emission vehicle requirements that require manufacturers to sell large numbers of EVs to get an average emission across their manufactured range - they needed to make and sell lots of pure EV to offset smaller numbers of ICE as they transition away from petrol/diesel under government mandated change. 

As all HEV are the 'same' as pure ICE for this calculation there is no/little commercial value in building them. 

Add to that the general population in those countries expecting EV not ICE and the reason becomes clearer.

 

BTW these European EV build/sale targets are one of the reasons there was a slower offering of EVs in Australia - manufacturing capacity was directing EV manufacturing capacity towards countries where ICE was penalized.  Countries like OZ were on the end of the offer list for those manufacturers even if they thought there was a market here.

 

Now we are starting to see EV offerings that are practical (if not affordable) for many OZ driving profiles.

 

 

[facthunter]

I hope we  will see a few "conversions" to EV become available or even Kits. Nev

[kgwilson]

You can argue all you like but ICE cars running on fossil fuels are in the twilight of their existence. They have served us well for 100 years and are now very refined but they are being superceded very rapidly. They now have so much electronic equipment in them and electric everything including everything that keeps the ICE engine running except the fuel they use, that they are electric except for motive power. EVs have all this equipment as well but also a clean and almost silent electric motor or 2, some even 3. Yes they cost more. The battery is typically 40% of the cost of the vehicle but they produce zero emissions and the motor only has one moving part plus bearings. There have been numerous studies that show the total cost of ownership over the expected life of the car is considerably less that the equivalent ICE car.

 

Toyota has been downplaying the EV revolution and losing. China is about to overtake Japan as the worlds largest car exporter and the Tesla Model Y is the largest selling car in the world knocking the Toyota Corolla of the perch it has held for many years. 40% of Chinas car production is now pure EV. Toyota keeps talking about its revolutionary solid state battery but the delivery date keeps getting put back every time they make an announcement.

 

The reports circulating about the emissions from EV production have all been debunked. ALL EV batteries are recylable and ALL the rare metals used are recoverable. To date only crash damaged batteries are being recycled. Those deemed to be no longer viable for running a car are sold for use as energy storage in commercial and domestic properties. There are also thousands of old Teslas with up to 800,000km on the clock still on their original battery.

 

Also in a desperate move Toyota has announced that it will be producing 10 new EVs by 2026. They are now so far behind the 8 ball they may never catch up. UK based business & Youtube channel, Fully Charged has launched a spinoff business called Stop Burning Stuff (Stop BS) to expose the myths about EVs which are being championed by the baying right wing media.

 

I made the leap 3 months ago & bought a new MG4 Essence 64 (UK car of the year 2023 & Carsales Australia Car of the Year 2023 plus 15 other major awards). I'll never go back to ICE. Quiet, comfortable, effortless power (EV torque is instant & dramatic) fantastic to drive & I never need a petrol station. I charge at home on off peak power or solar during the day. I've been on one 1100km road trip & did 3 topups at fast chargers. Spent about 20 minutes at 2 which was only just enough time to get a snack & use the dunny. The other was by the hotel & I had dinner & the battery was at 100% when I finished. Total cost $53.00. My first service is in 2 years or 40,000km when the A/C filter is replaced, Brake fluid replaced & running gear, cooling fluid etc checked. Cost a bit over $250.00

 

Electric is the future Now. Hydrogen may supplement this but currently storage and production are expensive and difficult.

[aro]

8 hours ago, turboplanner said:

The new concept is ICE not hybrid.

That specific vehicle, but the article you quoted basically confirms what I was saying:

Hot hydrogen can be applied in a hybridised arrangement to leverage existing electrification technology, a bonus for Toyota as the world’s largest producer of hybrid drivetrains.

[aro]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

a hybrid has the worst of both with a very small advantage for carrying a fair bit of extra weight to actually produce about 50 Kms of range

It's important to make the distinction between plug in hybrids and e.g. the Toyota hybrids. Toyotas are basically ICE with regenerative braking (and some related optimizations). They have basically no range as an EV. The battery is very small, but there isn't much extra weight e.g. they quote about 60kg extra weight for the hybrid Kluger.

 

Plug in hybrids are the worst (and best) of both worlds. You have both a significantly sized battery and ICE to maintain. However, you can charge at home covering most people's common short trips, while using the ICE for longer trips and not being dependent on charging infrastructure.

[kgwilson]

Hybrids are currently very popular mostly by people who realise the EV revolution is coming even though it is in reality already here but suffer from range anxiety. Sure there are not many chargers in the outback but what percentage of vehicle owners are going out there?

 

This is being overcome as we write. A company in Darwin is in the process of building transportable Charging stations to remote locations. They have a small batch of solar panels and a big battery to store the electricity and 4 to 6 charging bays. This is done at a fraction of the cost of building a Petrol/Diesel station in the outback and of course the fuel does not have to be transported by huge tankers for thousands of kilometres. As the sunniest place on the planet Australia is the perfect place for such infrastructure of the future.

Edited November 29, 2023 by kgwilson

[aro]

The big challenge for EV infrastructure will be managing peaks e.g. holiday weekends where everyone wants to travel.

 

I've seen petrol stations on the Hume with 16 pumps busy plus 20-30 cars queueing. It's going to be a while before electrical infrastructure can cope with that sort of peak. On the other hand, maybe many people will charge overnight at their accommodation rather than stopping along the highway.