My spies tell me Jabiru has been sold

[Litespeed]

5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

You don't have to triple the output for our CURRENT, you have to increase their output over a Hundredfold, if coal-fired becomes financially non-viable.

 So on your figure of 27% of current solar would have to expand to  be 2700% of our total grid and wind 1100%?

 

Do you actually believe that?

 

Or are you saying 100 times more battery storage?

 

Coal is already completely financially unviable and environmentally immoral.

[Litespeed]

5 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

The earlier figures I posted for Eastern Grid power generation today were at 15:30

 We're looking to see whether coal can ramp up or down.

 

At 18:57 with perhaps Air Conditioners turned on in some states, people home from work etc the outputs changed

 

Black coal generation ramped up 47% to 12,300 MW

Solar generation dropped 37.9% to 2130 MW

Wind ramped up 9.4% to 2593 MW

 

 

 

That how the Sun works , come 7pm it's getting darker

 

Don't worry it will be back on the morning 🌄

[turboplanner]

13 minutes ago, Litespeed said:

That how the Sun works , come 7pm it's getting darker

 

Don't worry it will be back on the morning 🌄

Really?

In that case you didn't read enough to find out the real issue was the ability of Black Coal to ramp up to suit demand.

 

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, Litespeed said:

Which would be easy.

 

We have more available roof space than that would need. 5million homes could cover the panels plus industrial roofs, carpark awnings etc.

 

Space is not a issue, imagination and proper planning can do it.

i agree that will work for domestic use but my initial ravings about nuclear was to supply industry with enough power which solar and wind will not do .  the vic gov is pushing for wind and solar yet they have installed a heap of diesel gensets at the old hazlewood site and in government buildings in melbourne.

[Litespeed]

Yes, the generators are a short term insurance due to the grid reliability from the old brown coal stations.

 

Industrial power use is huge but generally during day light ours, as is most retail and office work. Big industrial users which consume large chunks of a states power like alloy smelters are already investing in renewable power in a effort to be carbon neutral in the short to medium term.

 

Big industrial users know it's cheaper and more reliable to partially decouple from the grid with green energy. They invest for profit, that's where the money is flowing. They don't have to worry about grid spot prices or brownouts. Nor the social and environmental costs.

 

Excess solar can be stored, and hydrogen made which then gets converted to electricity. Combined green carbon free steel or aluminium can be made with only local inputs.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Don't have vast NSW Gov experince and non with the Mexicans, (or other States) however the limited experince I do have, is that diesel backup generators have been installed in at least some NSW facilities, since the 1990's ie nothing to do with the current debate on reliable electrical supply.

[Litespeed]

Diesel generators and gas turbine versions are a symptom of a sick system.

 

Huge imported expense, to be rarely run just in case or used where infrastructure is poor, in which case the fuel is extremely expensive. Such poor economics, it's exempt from taxes as a direct government sudsidy.

 

All imported expenses and subsidised by us.

 

Government will spend $50 billion in subsidies to  the fossil fuel industry  and mining industry over the next 4 years including fuel excise rebates.  An ongoing expense that only benefits very few. None is an investment in productively for the nation,  nor to provide energy independence, or reduce energy imports. In fact, the policy ensures the foreign wealth transfers and sovereign risk increases with every year. Imported fossil fuels can only get more expensive as will locally produced ones.

 

Almost no entity in most of the fossil fuel chain pays any tax on the subsidised diesel fuelled activity.  farmers  are another  debate but inherently subsidised.

 

Government must always pick winning ideas for economic assistance with a view to productivity, taxation, development, communal  wealth and health.

 

Our current policy is like burning money over Phar Laps corpse and expecting to win the Melbourne cup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BrendAn]

3 minutes ago, Litespeed said:

Diesel generators and gas turbine versions are a symptom of a sick system.

 

Huge imported expense, to be rarely run just in case or used where infrastructure is poor, in which case the fuel is extremely expensive. Such poor economics, it's exempt from taxes as a direct government sudsidy.

 

All imported expenses and subsidised by us.

 

Government will spend $50 billion in subsidies to  the fossil fuel industry  and mining industry over the next 4 years including fuel excise rebates.  An ongoing expense that only benefits very few. None is an investment in productively for the nation,  nor to provide energy independence, or reduce energy imports. In fact, the policy ensures the foreign wealth transfers and sovereign risk increases with every year. Imported fossil fuels can only get more expensive as will locally produced ones.

 

Almost no entity in most of the fossil fuel chain pays any tax on the subsidised diesel fuelled activity.  farmers  are another  debate but inherently subsidised.

 

Government must always pick winning ideas for economic assistance with a view to productivity, taxation, development, communal  wealth and health.

 

Our current policy is like burning money over Phar Laps corpse and expecting to win the Melbourne cup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

i just watched a video from canberra. mobil,qantas, shell , santos, agl and sintel have all made billions in record profits and not one has paid a cent in tax on those profits.

this country is stuffed.

[Litespeed]

50 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

i agree that will work for domestic use but my initial ravings about nuclear was to supply industry with enough power which solar and wind will not do .  the vic gov is pushing for wind and solar yet they have installed a heap of diesel gensets at the old hazlewood site and in government buildings in melbourne.

Brendan ,

 

I was intrigued by your earlier comment on nuclear waste and our moral responsibility to take it back and store it. 

 

Can you extrapolate your reasoning and how,  it should work? Could it be a big earner?

 

 

[Litespeed]

Just now, BrendAn said:

i just watched a video from canberra. mobil,qantas, shell , santos, agl and sintel have all made billions in record profits and not one has paid a cent in tax on those profits.

this country is stuffed.

Exactly.

 

It's called "State Capture" where government is so influenced by private power they control the agenda and what laws or taxes they accept.

 

Or the " economic Mafia" that's a lovely economy or policy you have, pity if something happened to it".

 

The very same mob that peddles disinformation to stop the public changing it.

[BrendAn]

7 minutes ago, Litespeed said:

Brendan ,

 

I was intrigued by your earlier comment on nuclear waste and our moral responsibility to take it back and store it. 

 

Can you extrapolate your reasoning and how,  it should work? Could it be a big earner?

 

 

it was spoken about quite a bit a while back but seems to have gone quiet.

the proponents said if we sell uranium to other countries then we should be morally responsible to take the waste back and store it. and because we have such a large stable and sparsely populated continent we are in a better position than most countries to build a secure storage facility. i remember years ago there was suggestion of turning one of the old underground mines at coolgardie into storage. i don't know what the going rate for storage but you would think it would be pretty good.

Edited December 6, 2023 by BrendAn

[Litespeed]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Really?

In that case you didn't read enough to find out the real issue was the ability of Black Coal to ramp up to suit demand.

 

As can battery storage including pumped hydro, which can produce surge but also long term power. Both on demand rather than burning fuel even when not needed.

 

It's inherently inefficient to burn fuel in a coal power plant whilst solar is plentiful during the day and thus very cheap. Storage is quamtams more efficient and economical when all costs are born.

[Litespeed]

12 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

it was spoken about quite a bit a while back but seems to have gone quiet.

the proponents said if we sell uranium to other countries then we should be morally responsible to take the waste back and store it. and because we have such a large stable and sparsely populated continent we are in a better position than most countries to build a secure storage facility. i remember years ago there was suggestion of turning one of the old underground mines at coolgardie into storage. i don't know what the going rate for storage but you would think it would be pretty good.

If the world agreed to send the waste,  and pay for its storage forever, that's the essential problem economic wise. Assuming we could it safely, which human nature, greed  and a 22,000 plus half life is problematic.

 

We would also have to get it here and ships are nasty terror targets.

 

But my reason to ask is about the moral responsibility.

If we should take responsibility for a poisonous product we sell, then, are we not on the hook for been a massive polluter for the exported coal and gas? If I sell a known poisonous drug offshore , am I still a drug dealer?

 

Sadly,  I think the nuclear fuel we sell is a lessor sin on the global scale. 

 

40 minutes away is the largest coal loading port in the world from me.

 

For a smart country, we spend a lot of effort to did holes and put our heads in them.

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, Litespeed said:

If the world agreed to send the waste,  and pay for its storage forever, that's the essential problem economic wise. Assuming we could it safely, which human nature, greed  and a 22,000 plus half life is problematic.

 

We would also have to get it here and ships are nasty terror targets.

 

But my reason to ask is about the moral responsibility.

If we should take responsibility for a poisonous product we sell, then, are we not on the hook for been a massive polluter for the exported coal and gas? If I sell a known poisonous drug offshore , am I still a drug dealer?

 

Sadly,  I think the nuclear fuel we sell is a lessor sin on the global scale. 

 

40 minutes away is the largest coal loading port in the world from me.

 

For a smart country, we spend a lot of effort to did holes and put our heads in them.

i said that in another post. they want everything solar and wind here but are quite happy to sell our coal and gas overseas . all that does is push the emissions somewhere else. they haven't gone away . 

[Litespeed]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

My grandfather worked in a mine at Newcastle that went out under the sea and died fairly young of silicosis. He died when I was about 4 about 18 Months before the Japan war ended. Nev

And we still allow it to happen. Profit Trump's health and society in a rigged card game.

[Litespeed]

27 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

i said that in another post. they want everything solar and wind here but are quite happy to sell our coal and gas overseas . all that does is push the emissions somewhere else. they haven't gone away . 

I agree totally.

 

And we subsidise non tax paying foreign companies to take our natural resources and not pay for them or repair the damage.

 

We are the biggest and one of cheapest gas exporters In the world. We also pay the highest prices in the world for our own gas. Why? John Howard thought it a good idea to make it that way and it's kept snowballing.

 

The $12.5 billion in subsidy for fossil fuels this year alone could make fundamental change.

 

That's $12,500 for each of a 1 million homes to be solar powered and connected to home/ community batteries with argumentation of electric car batteries as storage for those that have them. 

 

10 years of such a program would fundamentally change, not only our energy system but be a step change in economic growth that reduces national energy costs and imports of energy with insecure pricing.  

 

That would create great fundamental sustainable wealth for our economy. And would not cost a cent to the budget. Just no free ride on excise anymore.

 

What can a family do if they have almost zero home or car energy bills? Start by doing homes where the poor and renters are to reduce housing costs, it is a social benefit as well. We have government giving bill relief into the pocket of big energy, instead,  invest that as well into social power.

 

A simple change of priorities and world view and the world can change.

 

Power to the people, owned by the people.

 

If given the choice who would vote for continued fossil fuel subsidies and ever bigger bills  or everyone gets free solar and battery power with tiny bills over a decade?

 

A political no brainer, a win for the country, the people and the environment.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Litespeed

[Litespeed]

I think this should really get moved to Social Australia site for more in depth discussions.

 

My last post is far from Kansas Toto, or Jabiru.

[turboplanner]

8 hours ago, facthunter said:

What I said is still correct, Turbo.  Nev

Are you talking about the ability to ramp up a steam turbine?

[turboplanner]

5 hours ago, Litespeed said:

I think this should really get moved to Social Australia site for more in depth discussions.

 

My last post is far from Kansas Toto, or Jabiru.

You can go on the Social Australia site any time you like and even start a specific thread on whatever you want to discuss.

[jackc]

Why worry about about things you cant control or fix.  Don't EVER expect the Govt to help either. Make plans to cover your own needs in a shortage, be it food and fuel for generators, be off grid, water supply etc. Keep cars full of fuel etc…..the list goes on.

I have long been prepared, and by the time I run out of resources, most of the population will be at each others throats…..

Get short of food? I  Can always knock over a passing Wallaby, for fresh meat 🙂 

[facthunter]

It could be said that People can expect too much from governments but Many things are complex and go far beyond basic food and shelter. Medical  is a good example. You can't get off the treadmill and live like a beach boy easily either. The minimum House gets bigger and has to meet  requirements like insulation and wheelchair ramps Double glazing  and you can't use second hand materials or your own sawn timber sections.   Nev

[skippydiesel]

13 hours ago, Litespeed said:

Diesel generators and gas turbine versions are a symptom of a sick system.

 

Huge imported expense, to be rarely run just in case or used where infrastructure is poor, in which case the fuel is extremely expensive. Such poor economics, it's exempt from taxes as a direct government sudsidy.

 

All imported expenses and subsidised by us.

 

Government will spend $50 billion in subsidies to  the fossil fuel industry  and mining industry over the next 4 years including fuel excise rebates.  An ongoing expense that only benefits very few. None is an investment in productively for the nation,  nor to provide energy independence, or reduce energy imports. In fact, the policy ensures the foreign wealth transfers and sovereign risk increases with every year. Imported fossil fuels can only get more expensive as will locally produced ones.

 

Almost no entity in most of the fossil fuel chain pays any tax on the subsidised diesel fuelled activity.  farmers  are another  debate but inherently subsidised.

 

Government must always pick winning ideas for economic assistance with a view to productivity, taxation, development, communal  wealth and health.

 

Our current policy is like burning money over Phar Laps corpse and expecting to win the Melbourne cup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No man made system is fail safe.

 

If you want/need continuity of function/supply, you best have a contingency plan (backup generator), when/not if, the system falls over.

 

"....symptom of a sick system" - This is an idealistic approach ie not a real World position. There are so many factors that have the potential to cut of electrical supply - system maintenance, natural events, poor design/maintenance, accident, terrorist act, war, etc etc

[skippydiesel]

32 minutes ago, facthunter said:

It could be said that People can expect too much from governments but Many things are complex and go far beyond basic food and shelter. Medical  is a good example. You can't get off the treadmill and live like a beach boy easily either. The minimum House gets bigger and has to meet  requirements like insulation and wheelchair ramps Double glazing  and you can't use second hand materials or your own sawn timber sections.   Nev

All true Nev however I believe that "Many things" are made, by Gov of all levels (inc. bureaucracy), more complex simply to justify the political action/inaction of the moment.

 

Possibly urban myth but never forget the story of the American space program, pouring millions of dollars into developing a pen that can operate in zero gravity - the Russians used a pencil!

[onetrack]

Skippy, the NASA pen story is a great Urban Legend - but it is simply untrue, and you're only continuing to promote an Internet myth.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/#:~:text=But%2C alas%2C it is just,%244%2C382.50 or %24128.89 per pencil.

[skippydiesel]

1 minute ago, onetrack said:

Skippy, the NASA pen story is a great Urban Legend - but it is simply untrue, and you're only continuing to promote an Internet myth.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/#:~:text=But%2C alas%2C it is just,%244%2C382.50 or %24128.89 per pencil.

That's why I said "possible urbane myth" however this does not diminish the analogy to unnecessary over complication, even deliberate muddying of the waters, by our overly numerous leaders.