My spies tell me Jabiru has been sold

[kgwilson]

I don't need to look at the social media baying hound mob to realise that the person who posted this has no idea about charging an EV. The timeframes provides show this person was likely charging to 100% which is the dumbest thing to do. Charging especially with fast chargers slows down dramatically as the battery gets past 80%. I assume the battery uses NMC technology. This is the most common with highest energy density.The last 10% will take as long as the first 60% if not longer. It all depends on the battery management software.

 

10% to 80% will take about 18 minutes in an Ioniq 5 and a 5 minute charge at a fast charger will provide 100km of range in 5 minutes. So what was this idiot doing charging for 3 1/2 hours. Just after a sensational headline to appeal to ICE addicts and get clicks.

 

So if they had started with 100%, all they would need is 2 x 20 minute charges on the way. Only just enough time to have a couple of quick toilet and food breaks.

Edited November 30, 2023 by kgwilson

[facthunter]

Maybe that's the total charge time. I wouldn't go on what the car sales person says also. I think the Toyota Camry is targeted at people who want a bet both ways and is somewhat indecisive. You are paying $14,000 more and weighing it down 500 Kgs to get 55 Kms range and some regenerative benefit basically, mainly with stop start where the extra weight will slow the acceleration you'd otherwise achieve iIF it was JUST an ICE car.   Nev

[kgwilson]

The figures I quoted are not sales talk. That comes from actual testing. Also a bloke just around the corner has an Ioniq5. I haven't spoken to him about it but he is well aware of this sort of rubbish. The Daily Mail and other UK based tabloids have been rubbishing EVs for years and is largely why Fully Charged created their "Stop Burning Stuff" web site to debunk these false claims and narratives. Social Media and Youtube is full of it. The claims are almost all just opinion with no evidence to back them up. Just like what an orange ex president does all the time.

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

You can't politically condemn those outside your tent to poverty through lack of transport, so you have to find a solution for every City, every town and every property in Australia.

 

And BTW at the present time you have to convert all Public Transport rail either to Battery Electric power-generated by wind or solar or build solar/windfarms to power those huge electricity sinks which are currently emitting masses of CO2 at their Coal-fired Power Station supply points to make any sense of pushing people to EV.

 

It would be a lot cheaper for governments to do the research from the time the United Nations started the global warming programme in 1968.

 

Then you might not have to do anything.

 

 

 

You misunderstand - I am suggesting the bulk of our population can use EV's or not have a car at all, because they live in/close proximity to their work/leisure/shopping  - this could be further improved/encouraged by decent public transport (something Australia generally lacks ).

The few that live outside our cities could continue (at least until we have suitable/viable electric utes/trucks/tractors/etc) with ICE's - their contribution to pollution/ energy cost/dollars spent on urban roads is miniscule by comparison.

[turboplanner]

59 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

You misunderstand - I am suggesting the bulk of our population can use EV's or not have a car at all, because they live in/close proximity to their work/leisure/shopping

 The only reason for using EV is if CO2 produces global warming. Given that minimising CO2 emissions is the goal and the EVs are not recharged by Coal-Fired power plants or diesel generators, both of which are occurring now, I'd suggest we would need to tackle the biggest volume areas - where vehicles are operating with open throttles. Tis group only use their cars for low annual distance and these days in 40, 50 and 60 km/hr zones so are minute emitters.

 

It just happens that because their distances are so short and time for charging so long and full power rarely demanded they are also prime material for EV.

 

The vehicle meets the Application but the CO2 reduction is tiny in volume.

 

59 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

  - this could be further improved/encouraged by decent public transport (something Australia generally lacks )

Yes it does and bringing it up to Kyoto standard would eliminate most of those cars except for people who wanted to go on holidays, rode horses had family in Geelong etc.

 

The Prime cost would be huge to do it all at once, and the States have dropped into heavy debt loads to get us through Covid. Victoria has already started the process When their underground loop is finished you can live in Mentone and catch a train to Monash Uni, the Chinese Restaurant precinct in Box Hill or the Airport reducing the need for a car to do those things Kyoto is just a multiple of that concept on steoids.

 

So for this idea, a good sociological plan but not a great reduction in CO2, and probably not going to happen because of finances being used for other things.

59 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

The few that live outside our cities could continue (at least until we have suitable/viable electric utes/trucks/tractors/etc) with ICE's - their contribution to pollution/ energy cost/dollars spent on urban roads is miniscule by comparison.

17.9 million people live in our cities - with traffic speeds up to 80 except for freeways so part throttle = part power demand = not as range sensitive as country.

 

8.1 million people live in the Regions so a bigger percentage of wide open throttle, full CO2 emissions, and biggest battery drains often with less than 2 hours turna around. For example an Elders Mount Gambier Salesman taking a client to buy stud sheep in Deniliquin will pick up his client around 4 am, drive 5 hours straight to deniliquin, spend about 2 hours on the farm where they'll be given lunch, fuel up at the local service station and drive straight back to Mount Gambier, so about 9 hours drive at 100 km/hr and 20 minutes charge time if the service station has a charger.

 

If, somehow there was a large takeup of EV in the cities and ICE suppliers dropped their regional vehicles just as GM and Ford dropped their utes, the world falls apart for these 8.1 million people.

 

So there are some bigger prices to pay than just putting up with an alleged increase of 1.5 degrees C ambient. Think about it; that would give Melbourne about the same temperatures that Sydney has now and Sydney about the same as Brisbane has now and Brisbane about the same as Townsville is now.

 

A good example of ignoring the regional people is in the South East of South Australia where the agricultural production represents half the income of South Australia. If they lost their vehicle infrastructure, a State would be crippled. We wouldn't have to wait for the 1.5 degree Armageddon to show its nose over the horizon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sfGnome]

I remember when I was a kid, spending a heap of time gathering information to support my contention that Holdens were better than Fords. Of course, the reason for my certainty was that my dad had a Holden, and the reprobate that I was arguing with’s dad had a Ford. Neither of us were old enough to drive, but the certainty of our positions were absolute. 
 

What’s my point? This entire ‘discussion’ (although the term ‘discussion’ implies listening to the other party in an attempt to learn and come to some agreement) bears a distinct resemblance to to pointless arguments of my youth.

 

We don’t think about ROI when buying a car any more than we do when choosing a plane. We buy (or rent) one that fits our needs, budget and personal predilections. Some of us like ICEs, some of us like EVs. It’s all good. 
 

Now, can we get back to talking about aircraft and flying and stop shouting at each other about things we’ll never agree on? Please?

[Jabiru7252]

On 29/11/2023 at 8:57 PM, kgwilson said:

I lived in London from 1973 to 75 a city of around 8 million people at the time. Most people didn't own a car. There was no need. There was a tube station or several in every suburb and in peak times there was a bus every couple of minutes. In Australia we have become addicted to cars and have failed to build decent public transport and continue to build more and more motorways while everyone buys more cars. Sydney is an absolute nightmare to get anywhere. Now the newly opened Rozelle tunnel complex to connect everywhere with everywhere else is a total initial disaster. It will eventually work but won't resolve the problem as more and more cars clog the streets until our addiction to private transport changes. That won't happen any time soon. certainly not in my lifetime.

Yes, I was in London in 1980 and the transport systems were great. I was also young and fit enough for fight or flight in the event of some asshole wanting to rob or bash me. These days with the nutters and druggies and other garbage out there I just wouldn't feel safe.

[turboplanner]

5 hours ago, sfGnome said:

I remember when I was a kid, spending a heap of time gathering information to support my contention that Holdens were better than Fords. Of course, the reason for my certainty was that my dad had a Holden, and the reprobate that I was arguing with’s dad had a Ford. Neither of us were old enough to drive, but the certainty of our positions were absolute. 
 

What’s my point? This entire ‘discussion’ (although the term ‘discussion’ implies listening to the other party in an attempt to learn and come to some agreement) bears a distinct resemblance to to pointless arguments of my youth.

 

We don’t think about ROI when buying a car any more than we do when choosing a plane. We buy (or rent) one that fits our needs, budget and personal predilections. Some of us like ICEs, some of us like EVs. It’s all good. 
 

Now, can we get back to talking about aircraft and flying and stop shouting at each other about things we’ll never agree on? Please?

If you're suggesting this discussion is just pointless arguments an no one knows what they are talking about, by all means pick a subject and actually open a discussion on another subject and see if you can attract comments.

 

The comments may appear opposing, but that's because real-world test data is only emerging slowly, but we do have opposing data so the delta is a lot closer to being obtained than it was, and a lot of issues not generally available have come to light. The material we are discussing might be fom cars, but much of it will transfer to anyone who wants to buy a battery powered aircraft.

[turboplanner]

11 hours ago, Jabiru7252 said:

Yes, I was in London in 1980 and the transport systems were great. I was also young and fit enough for fight or flight in the event of some asshole wanting to rob or bash me. These days with the nutters and druggies and other garbage out there I just wouldn't feel safe.

What’s the caution for Skippy? Do you know something we don’t?

[FlyBoy1960]

Let me add my ten cents worth

 

I own a new Tesla Model Y vehicle, now with about 4,000 km

 

After the rebates in Queensland it cost just under $53,000 on the road with a full charge !

 

I have 8.8 kW of solar panels on my roof because I have been trying to reduce my power costs for some time.

 

I have installed a car recharging unit called the Zappi, and I have this set up to only recharge my vehicle on 100% solar.

 

If I was not recharging the vehicle I would get a $0.05 credit per kilowatt hour put back into the grid (which is an absolute joke), so I therefore cost the vehicle running charges at $0.05 per kilowatt hour because this is what I would be getting back if it went into the grid instead of into the car.

 

Using the Tesla app, it is showing me the total cost of recharging for about 4,000 km is $27 based on $0.05 per kilowatt hour which I have put in as the charging cost.

 

Summary:  I have a vehicle which is significantly cheaper than anything else the same size like a traditional SUV.  A hilux or a raptor does not give you much change out of $70,000 and yet I "only" spent $53,000 which is expensive to most of us, but by comparison to most comparable vehicles, a reasonable price for what I have received in my opinion.  I have my charging set up so I don't need to have any out-of-pocket expenses for the use of my vehicles electricity and recharging. I have a 450 km range which is good enough for 99% of my driving as I expect it would be for 99% of people with this type of vehicle.
 

If I ever go on a big trip which will require remote recharging I have the expectation that I will have to take a 30 minute break, I may even need a one hour break if I need to wait for a charger. I may have to pay $30 or $40 for said electricity to recharge, but my attitude is, I am so far ahead that it doesn't really matter.

 

If I have any concerns about using this vehicle on a big trip then I am fortunate to have a little Renault which uses on average 5.3 L per 100 km from the surprising performance given from the 1.5 L turbo diesel engine.

 

There is no one vehicle that is going to suit everyone's needs, just as there is no one aircraft that suits everyone's needs. Some people need to be landing at 25 kn in a cub type aircraft, some people don't care they just want to do 200 kn to get from A to B. 

 

I am the first to admit an electric vehicle won't suit everybody, especially if you are in a country area say 6 hours out of the city. This type of location would make it difficult to get any benefits but for me, with my longest trip under 2 hours return it is near ideal for all of the reasons I have mentioned above and I'm also to have access to my Renault for the time that using an electric vehicle does not suit.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

40 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

What’s the caution for Skippy? Do you know something we don’t?

I feel that your logic is wanting - you seem to be a closet Global Warming denier.

That's fine, however to present a convincing case, you might like to use complet, logically progressed, arguments.

 

I did start by writing a long, point by point rebuttal, however scraped that, as I would like to get back to matters aviation.

[spenaroo]

can we just create a whole separate thread for the electric stuff.
feel like its grown way beyond aviation and especially Jabiru's future.
maybe best discussed in the off topic section?

I'm normally all for thread drift... but not 10 pages worth

Edited December 1, 2023 by spenaroo

[RocketShip]

Could not agree more, turns you off the forum.

[turboplanner]

44 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I feel that your logic is wanting - you seem to be a closet Global Warming denier.

That's fine, however to present a convincing case, you might like to use complet, logically progressed, arguments.

 

I did start by writing a long, point by point rebuttal, however scraped that, as I would like to get back to matters aviation.

If you care to look back you'll see I was asking about the Caution you gave Jabiru7252.

[RossK]

16 hours ago, turboplanner said:

When their underground loop is finished you can live in Mentone and catch a train to .... the Airport

You're a funny guy Turbo - Train to the airport in Melbourne 🤣😂

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, RossK said:

You're a funny guy Turbo - Train to the airport in Melbourne 🤣😂

Well we've been waiting for about 50 years and with the current statements by Melbourne Airport the State Minister and The Federal Minister fighting over underground or above ground station so maybe another 50?

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, spenaroo said:

can we just create a whole separate thread for the electric stuff.
feel like its grown way beyond aviation and especially Jabiru's future.
maybe best discussed in the off topic section?

I'm normally all for thread drift... but not 10 pages worth

Yes you can, nothing to stop you setting up a heading and starting it off.

Doing that also has the benefit of allowing searches for subject matter easy.

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

I have my charging set up so I don't need to have any out-of-pocket expenses for the use of my vehicles electricity and recharging. I have a 450 km range which is good enough for 99% of my driving as I expect it would be for 99% of people with this type of vehicle.
 

Would this be the Model Y Rear Wheel Drive? with.

WHLV 455 km range

Battery 57.5 kW

Efficiency: 132 Wh/khr

Performance, Drive: 194 kW

Performance: Torque: 340 kW

Drive: RWD

Weight: 1929 kg

Towing: 750 kg

 

Roughly what percentage would the application be?
% Highway

%Suburban

%City

 

I'd like to run some figures an drive loading and see if they are anywhere near yours.

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm as guilty of thread drift as anybody. Lately I've gone back to see exactly what the "heading" was, a few times.  Nev

[sfGnome]

9 hours ago, turboplanner said:

If you're suggesting this discussion is just pointless arguments an no one knows what they are talking about

No. I'm saying that everyone has stated their case over and over, and clearly no one is going to change their mind. For this reason only, the discussion has become pointless. In fact, even this reply is pointless, so I'll stop.

[spenaroo]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Yes you can, nothing to stop you setting up a heading and starting it off.

Doing that also has the benefit of allowing searches for subject matter easy.

 

Here you all go,

 

https://www.socialaustralia.com.au/topic/2196-electric-car-thread/

[FlyBoy1960]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Would this be the Model Y Rear Wheel Drive? with.

WHLV 455 km range

Battery 57.5 kW

Efficiency: 132 Wh/khr

Performance, Drive: 194 kW

Performance: Torque: 340 kW

Drive: RWD

Weight: 1929 kg

Towing: 750 kg

 

Roughly what percentage would the application be?
% Highway

%Suburban

%City

 

I'd like to run some figures an drive loading and see if they are anywhere near yours.

 

 

You are correct I do have this model, I drive like a little old lady going to church, i have it running in chill mode because it limits the performance, even in this mode it exceeds my speed requirements.

90% of my operation is stop and start below 80 km/h just in a normal residential area with a few linking roads that run at 80 and the rest are at 50. 10% is highway use, but I use all of the technology to drive for me, and again it regulates the speeds, acceleration rates and optimises the use of regeneration for breaking which can sometimes be a little frightening because it leaves it till really late so it gets the best regeneration available.

[turboplanner]

8 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

You are correct I do have this model, I drive like a little old lady going to church, i have it running in chill mode because it limits the performance, even in this mode it exceeds my speed requirements.

90% of my operation is stop and start below 80 km/h just in a normal residential area with a few linking roads that run at 80 and the rest are at 50. 10% is highway use, but I use all of the technology to drive for me, and again it regulates the speeds, acceleration rates and optimises the use of regeneration for breaking which can sometimes be a little frightening because it leaves it till really late so it gets the best regeneration available.

Tks, that’s a good EV profile. I’ll do some test calls to see what other power demands might do.

[FlyBoy1960]

17 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Tks, that’s a good EV profile. I’ll do some test calls to see what other power demands might do.

I know that if I have the vehicle out of chill mode into sport mode, if I have the air conditioning set below 20° and if I have the sentry mode activated to run 24-hours every day it uses quite a bit of battery.

There are also other settings which can stop the cabin from getting really hot called vent mode which will put fresh air into the car once it gets to a set temperature, there is also dog mode that keeps the vehicle at 24° so you can leave your dog inside a parked car (something I would never do anyway) but the alarm and sentry mode seems to be a really big power drain. Even when the vehicle is just parked it runs about 5 cameras and records everything to a hard drive. If I parked overnight I could notice 3 or 4% drop in the  battery just from running the cameras overnight so I now have it turned off whilst I am at home because the vehicle is locked in a garage. It will still record and the alarm works if the vehicle get bumped or if somebody walks really close to the vehicle but it is not recording 24/7 in 4K with this setting turned off. Overnight i have zero battery drain now.

[facthunter]

So we go through the Hoo  Haa about thread drift and THEN just carry on regardless??  Nev