Moorabbin under threat

[red750]

On tonight's news there was a report that a development plan for Moorabbin airport will be released this week. Developers are trying to get their hands on the land. State and Federal government is remaining tight lipped. No details have been leaked, but this could be the beginning of the end. I wanted to get more detail and was going to rewind and replay the item while creating this thread, but hit the wrong button and deleted it.

[onetrack]

More here ...... https://baysidenews.com.au/2023/08/30/airport-neighbours-left-in-the-dark-mayor/

 

[BrendAn]

You can guarantee if criminal dan and his mates smell cash Moorabbin is doomed. They are desperate.

[old man emu]

They are trying to do exactly what is being done at Bankstown. Turning what land isn't absolutely essential for the operation of aircraft into warehousing. I'll take a few pictures of Bankstown this week to let you see what is going on.

[facthunter]

Like what happened at Essendon. I used Bankstown when it was an all Over Field with one long runway down the east side near the Hangars to  service De Havillands.   Nev

[walrus]

Moorabbin is going to close the instant the Minister thinks she can get away with it. To believe otherwise is naive.

Edited September 3, 2023 by walrus

[Jerry_Atrick]

Sadly, the amounf (rather than quality) of development they have permitted at Moorabbin over the years has already diminished it somewhat from when I flew from there. It seriosuly was one of the best GA airports (outside the USA) I have visited - well, except for the cafe facilities. I recall taking my then very young kids there for a family day - the playground, able to set up a BBQ, and even using that old car park opposite the tower to let my then 3yr old son have a steer of the car while sitting on my lap.

 

From a flying perspective the facilities were excellent. And if one was an RVAC member, there was the members bar as well. Your flying school/club was out of aircraft?  No worries - they cross-hired from others. Cross wind runways, and the like was fantastic. Sincethe good ol; days, it has been overdeveloped; the kids playground is gone, the carpark, from memory, is gone. Ugly block building adorn what was a community asset that allowed people to participate in aviation, ether it was actively or passively.

 

I don't think DA (state of Victoria) or any government agency diectly benefits from losing Moorabbin. From here: https://www.moorabbinairport.com.au/about-us/overview, "Moorabbin Airport  is wholly owned by Goodman, a publicly listed property group with operations throughout Australia, New Zealand, Asia, Europe, the United Kingdom, and the Americas."

 

The money has already been made by the government. The UK is full of ex-airfields whose owners are property [development] companies. The do not care about flying.. If they can make more money turning it into residential, commercial, or mixed use, then they will. And 297 hectares in mioddle south-east Melbourne will return a lot more to the owners fully developed than the aviation businesses will return.

 

Better get prepared to band together and roll your sleeves up for a fight. It is hard, but it can be worth it. Plymoth Airport has been closed for about 12 years, and our little PA28 was one of the last visiting aircraft to take off from its runway before it closed. Sutton Harbour Holdings had the lease with an armageddon clause that if it was not profitable, they coudl develop it. A long hard fight with the council and a well organised group wanting to take it over on a sustainable going concern basis has so fat thwarted the effort.. but it needed broad public support to do it. Sadly, many others have lost the battle, incluing a listed WWII airfield, Old Sarum.

 

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Sadly, the amounf (rather than quality) of development they have permitted at Moorabbin over the years has already diminished it somewhat from when I flew from there.

Remember that the Harry Hawker Field was designed for all-over operations, so once the runways went in there were large areas of paddock unused.

 

Movements Moorabbin Airport 1963 189228, 1973 254022, 1983 238200, 1993 328000, 2003 235700, 2013 230928, 2023 237410.

 

Van Nuys, often touted as the best light aircraft airport in the world, has about 230,000 movements per year.

 

Report 1/8/23 by Airservices: Moorabbin was the busiest flight training airport in Australia, recording 237,419 movements in the year to June 30 2023. It was also the busiest airport in Australia overall.

 

Moorabbin won the best Metro Airport Award in 2022 by the Australian Airports Association for airfield renewal projects.

 

 

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

 well, except for the cafe facilities.

You can make your choices at a Food Hall now.

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I recall taking my then very young kids there for a family day - the playground, able to set up a BBQ

I think that pobably bit the dust on liability grounds, but you have a choice of several spots under the circuit in the Chain of Parks.

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

and even using that old car park opposite the tower to let my then 3yr old son have a steer of the car while sitting on my lap.

Well they're older now and a very impressive Aircraft Museum has expanded on to it from the couple of old shells parked there, so your children could sit in one of the various fully rebuilt WW2 fighters with all its controls in place to push and pull, or a modern airlines cockpit etc. well wprth a visit.

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

From a flying perspective the facilities were excellent. And if one was an RVAC member, there was the members bar as well.

Random alcohol testing on the roads probably hurt the RVAC members dining room and bar most, only a shadow of its former self, but that type of facility was wiped out all over Melbourne. Millenials to Z'ers don't congregate like that anyway.

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Your flying school/club was out of aircraft?  No worries - they cross-hired from others.

They still could; we can't really control their business policies.

 

 

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Cross wind runways, and the like was fantastic.

They are still there.  While I'd say the main 17/35 runways haven't been compromised by rotors etc, the cross runways have, but its the 1735 runways that operate most of the time. 

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I don't think DA (state of Victoria) or any government agency diectly benefits from losing Moorabbin. From here: 

This thread relates to a Planning Process, not the closure of the Airport. From the comments so far, I don't think anyone has read the documents.

 

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Better get prepared to band together and roll your sleeves up for a fight. It is hard, but it can be worth it.

There has been very good grass roots activism and Kingston City Council gets actively involved because they see it as one of their greatest assets. KCC involvement also brings in their professional Planners who know Planning law.

 

From a State Planning perspective, Moorabbin Airport is ideally placed to serve the eastern Industrial cluster's needs, and Charter/Feeder operations for the new National and International Airport located out in the Koo Wee Rup swamp.

 

Its operations have changed over the past 40 years and displaced some of the operators out to the fringes around Melbourne, and you'll hear a few gripes from some of those people, but that change also has brought flying to people out on the fringes, most having an airfield within 20 minutes.

 

Sure it's a mixed bag, but that award MAC, as they like to call themselve now, was for about $25 million improvements; compare that to a lot of country airfields around Australia where you can't help but notice the cracked 1942 bitumen and concrete and buildings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by turboplanner

[Jerry_Atrick]

7 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Remember that the Harry Hawker Field was designed for all-over operations, so once the runways went in there were large areas of paddock unused.

 

Movements Moorabbin Airport 1963 189228, 1973 254022, 1983 238200, 1993 328000, 2003 235700, 2013 230928, 2023 237410.

 

That is a good point, but arguably some of the fields provided a safety buffer and accommodted mixed aviation use well.

 

Also, since 1993, which is when Iwas flying there, the movemebts have dropped off 30% despite a) a large increase in the populaton of Melbourne (3.238m --> 5.235m) and the introduction of larger commercial training (e.g. Oxford Aviation). That, of course, doesn't really say anything other than there could be a drop in interest of the community in aviation related activities, but I can't help but wonder if some of those facilities that provided parents the opportunity to take their kids to for some cheap entertainment has not planted as many seeds of interesst as there would have otherwise been.

 

Also, I would movements alone don't make an airport great - but YMMB is still pretty great.

 

7 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I think that pobably bit the dust on liability grounds, but you have a choice of several spots under the circuit in the Chain of Parks.

Maybe I am oversimpliifying it, but wouldn't that same liability extend to virtualy every park in Melbourne? Of course, the company that owns YMMB would have to maintain it, and I would put it down to the cost to a private company over pure liability.

7 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Well they're older now and a very impressive Aircraft Museum has expanded on to it from the couple of old shells parked there, so your children could sit in one of the various fully rebuilt WW2 fighters with all its controls in place to push and pull, or a modern airlines cockpit etc. well wprth a visit.

Last time I visited (2018), I recall teh car park gone, but not the miuseum extended, do kudos where it is due. When I am next out, I will be sure to pay a visit.

 

7 hours ago, turboplanner said:

This thread relates to a Planning Process, not the closure of the Airport. From the comments so far, I don't think anyone has read the documents.

Fair enough - I was just going on this thread...

 

Have to go to work, will pick up later, no doubt

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[planedriver]

On 03/09/2023 at 5:27 PM, old man emu said:

They are trying to do exactly what is being done at Bankstown. Turning what land isn't absolutely essential for the operation of aircraft into warehousing. I'll take a few pictures of Bankstown this week to let you see what is going on.

The size of one particular wharehouse Beijer Ref in the s/w corner looks almost big enough to have a new runway built on it's roof.

What a crying shame from how things used to be.

New structures going up everywhere.

 

[facthunter]

These close buildings don't help landings when there's winds around.  We'll never see houses cleared to make way for Airfields. .  Essendon is Commonwealth land and the Council couldn't do anything about the development being done on it.  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

I recall when taking off on the 18 runways, or landing on the 35 runways on a hot day being buuffeted by the thermals rising from the tin rooves of the factories in Braeside, that were closer to, was it Lower Dandenong Road? At low speed and relatively close to the ground, one learned to keep their wits about them.

 

Now to pick up form where I left off..

 

21 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Random alcohol testing on the roads probably hurt the RVAC members dining room and bar most, only a shadow of its former self, but that type of facility was wiped out all over Melbourne. Millenials to Z'ers don't congregate like that anyway.

Re the RVAC bar demise, true. But looking at their websire, it seems to be open enough for a club: https://www.rvac.com.au/flight-deck-bar---grill, which was better than when I was there. Re Gen Zs and Millenials, I would be surprised if they made up the bulk of the membershuip, and people to change over time. Also, I am quite sure they all don't sit on computer games iand interact through discord. It's about generating interest rather than wiating for it to come. 

 

I am gald to hear there is great grass roots activism in KCC and the community, because while the owners may not at this time be thinking about redevelopment of the airfield, when it becomes economic for them to do it, they will.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

14 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Maybe I am oversimpliifying it, but wouldn't that same liability extend to virtualy every park in Melbourne? Of course, the company that owns YMMB would have to maintain it, and I would put it down to the cost to a private company over pure liability.

It's a mixture; from about 3 they want to be taken to Gravity Zone, Chipmunks, Le Mans etc. a see saw is a bit yesterday, but the Councils now provide many more, scattered right throughout the Wards  with compressed rubber bases and safety equipment. You pay for them and that pays the PL insurance (in the case of Councils they fleece you through the rates.

14 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Last time I visited (2018), I recall teh car park gone, but not the miuseum extended, do kudos where it is due. When I am next out, I will be sure to pay a visit.

I had a look yesterday. A lot depends on what was there when you were. Coming in east on second avenue there's the Museum, museum entry building, museum parking a road, CAE buildings, parking for approx 100 cars then Bundora Pde.

 

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I am gald to hear there is great grass roots activism in KCC and the community, because while the owners may not at this time be thinking about redevelopment of the airfield, when it becomes economic for them to do it, they will.

This thread has a bit of Chooky Looky telling all the farmyard animals and birds that the sky had fallen and all the birds of the air fell a sighing and a sobbing......................in this case without referrin to the Planning documents to see what is actually changing.

[Jerry_Atrick]

It may be a but Chooky Looky, but look up Sutton Harbour Holdings and Plymouth airport. All grand plans for the airport in terms of developing aviation; but when the housing boom meant that land was suddenly worth a lot more as housing than an airport, my how quickly things changed. Corporations are in it to make money. Publicly lsted corporations habe duties to their shareholders and one is to maximise earnings. No doubt, the Aussie planning laws and business landscape is different to the UK. But one this is for certain, if the airport suddenly becomes much more profitable to justify redevloping it as a used car lot, then they will attempt to do it.

 

I am not saying they are planning it now, but eventually, they will run out of land to develop and want to increase their returns. Then what? It may not happen in our lifetime (no idea how old you are)..

Edited September 9, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[turboplanner]

42 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

It may be a but Chooky Looky, but look up Sutton Harbour Holdings and Plymouth airport. All grand plans for the airport in terms of developing aviation; but when the housing boom meant that land was suddenly worth a lot more as housing than an airport, my how quickly things changed. Corporations are in it to make money. Publicly lsted corporations habe duties to their shareholders and one is to maximise earnings. No doubt, the Aussie planning laws and business landscape is different to the UK. But one this is for certain, if the airport suddenly becomes much more profitable to justify redevloping it as a used car lot, then they will attempt to do it.

 

I am not saying they are planning it now, but eventually, they will run out of land to develop and want to increase their returns. Then what? It may not happen in our lifetime (no idea how old you are)..

I've been working on Planning issues in Scotland for about the last five years, and we've found much the same corruption to deal with, much the same Planning process to follow from Council to the Scottish Reporters to the Ministers etc, and even in a couple of cases the same companies acting as experts for the developers. I haven't been involved with English Planning, but if it's anything like Scotlands then whatever happened at Plymouth Airport could happen in Australia with one exception.

MAC is one of the Airports which has a 99 year lease from the Federal Government, so there is a limit on what they can do.

Where we are losing airports is where Councils or Private interests own them, and we've lost a lot via the Master plan route where no one gets involved, or they think the Councillors or "someone" will save their airport and next thing it's unusable.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I honestly don't know Scots law so would refrain from opining, but it is good to see England doesn't only have the corrupt councils 😉

 

Plymouth City Council is alleged to have been corrupt in its handling of issuing the 99 year lease to Sutton Harbour Holdings (SHH), with an armageddon clause that they evenutally decided to manufacture to trigger. They basically revoked permission from the airline at the time that was based there, then declared the airport was no longer viable despite others lining up to be the next airline to operate the airport. Until the housing boom, there was nothing on the rada thast would have indicated they were interested in anything other than operating as an airport.

 

SHH had a lease as well. I guess it would be determined as to what the lease contains as to what a lessee can do with it. Note, Plymouth remains undeveloped but has been closed for 10 years by now.

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

MAC is one of the Airports which has a 99 year lease from the Federal Government, so there is a limit on what they can do.

 However, from the Mooraabin Airport Website,  https://www.moorabbinairport.com.au/about-us/overview:

"Moorabbin Airport  is wholly owned by Goodman, a publicly listed property group with operations throughout Australia, New Zealand, Asia, Europe, the United Kingdom, and the Americas. Goodman’s global industrial property expertise, integrated own+develop+manage customer service offering and significant investment management platform, delivers essential infrastructure for the digital economy."

 

If the airport is wholly owned by Goodman, do they lease it to MAC? Is the lease breakable, and under what conditions? 

 

Also, I guess there are covenants on the airport land as well.. but these can be removed

 

All I am saying is that there appear to be grounds for keeping  a sharp eye on things.. appreciate there may be no cause for alarm at the moment.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[turboplanner]

9 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

"Moorabbin Airport  is wholly owned by Goodman, a publicly listed property group with operations throughout Australia, New Zealand, Asia, Europe, the United Kingdom, and the Americas. 

If the airport is wholly owned by Goodman, do they lease it to MAC? Is the lease breakable, and under what conditions? 

All I am saying is that there appear to be grounds for keeping  a sharp eye on things.. appreciate there may be no cause for alarm at the moment.

In Planning you find a lot of positioning statements designed to convince people to mind their own business or look away.

 

As an example, in Scotland the public and the Council were assured by the developer that a particular battlefield area where he wanted to build houses had been excavated and checked for inventry (bodies) by an "independent archaeological organisation". Following Planning Rule No 1: "Check Everything", I found that the whole area had been excavated by [Local Town] Excavations Ltd which was owned by [Local District] Archaeology Ltd who carried out the analysis and Independent Report........and they were owned by the developer.

 

I'm not saying anything like that has happened here, just that the nature of Planning requires more than a quick glance at any statement.

 

Definition: "A leasehold property is one where you own a long-term right to use of the land or building but the property is actually owned by another entity, often a government.  Source: Domain.

 

Between 1997 and 2003, the Commonwealth Government conducted 22 Airport 99 year Leashold sales to private industry.

 

This link shows shows comments by Professor Michael Buxton, RMI University on some of the amazing profits from these Leases.

https://theconversation.com/airport-privatisations-have-put-profit-before-public-safety-and-good-planning-73442#:~:text=Between 1997 and 2003%2C the,public authorities didn't anticipate.   This link shows how the Commonwealth is managing its properties.    https://www.anao.gov.au/work/performance-audit/management-federal-airport-leases

[Mewp]

is Moorabbin "owned" by Goodman or do they hold the 99 year lease from the Federal Government like many other secondary airports and if so local planning does not apply as the land is under federal planning laws although  I may be wrong here.

[facthunter]

THAT was the situation at Essendon. The Local council could not stop the development.  Nev

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Mewp said:

is Moorabbin "owned" by Goodman or do they hold the 99 year lease from the Federal Government like many other secondary airports and if so local planning does not apply as the land is under federal planning laws although  I may be wrong here.

Moorabbin is leased from the Federal Government.

[turboplanner]

59 minutes ago, facthunter said:

THAT was the situation at Essendon. The Local council could not stop the development.  Nev

That was the thought at the time of the King Air accident, but Moonee Ponds Council has had more to say on it and so have others. There may be something on it in the first link of the two I posted about five posts back.

[planedriver]

Thank you for what you are doing to endevour to make others aware.

If no one does anything, thats what we wind up with, nothing, other than financial gains for the corporate interests.

It's certainly an uphill battle.

 

 

 

 

 

[red750]

On 08/09/2023 at 5:47 PM, Jerry_Atrick said:

I recall teh car park gone, but not the miuseum extended, do kudos where it is due. When I am next out, I will be sure to pay a visit.

These images from Streetview are dated 2019. I was at Moorabbin in April and it looked like this. Note: I put the caption on before checking, it should say CAE Aviation Academy.

 

[red750]

Things have changed a bit since I learnt to fly. My school, Civil Flying School had three rooms beside the hangar. This is CAE Aviation Academy at Moorabbin. Dwarfs the terminal building on the left.