US Air Safety Institute's McSpadden killed in C177RG crash • Oct 1 2023

[Thruster88]

There is nothing impossible about turning an aircraft with a dead engine at 30° bank angle while maintaining best glide speed. Maintaining best glide speed is the important bit regardless of going straight or turning.

[facthunter]

Reaching your destination (the runway) is important too. Maintaining control is Mandatory. A delay in initiating the turn is rapidly reducing your chances of making it and it has been found a greater bank angle than 30 degrees is better. IF not completely sure don't chance it as it requires considerable skill and judgement. To be high enough you need a headwind and that complicates the landing. There's no room for error. Nev

[Garfly]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

Reaching your destination (the runway) is important too. 

Yes, according to Juan Browne, it was probably not the turn, per se, that caught them out but coming up short on the glide, which, in this case, meant crashing into near vertical terrain just before the runway; apparently, a kind of plateau, whereas a normal airport layout might have had this episode end with nothing more than a bit of an undershoot in the grass.

[danny_galaga]

Agreed. Engine has just failed. How long is the 'oh s@@t' moment? Now what height are you at? And airspeed dropped by how much? Now nose has to be dropped more dramatically. What height now? Now you're deciding if you should try to turn back because you've practiced at height and think you know it can be done. What height now? 

No, for most people, and definitely me, it's better that's not even a thought that enters my head.

[Thruster88]

We have to think about every takeoff. At Old Station there is a similar land form to lake placid off the departure end of runway when going west. I said to my friend RFguy, we will be turning away from that if the engine fails.

 

In the lake Placid case the right hand turn shortly after takeoff would have put the aircraft in a good position for the extensive golf course north of the field versus a possible under shoot for the runway with the deadly cliff awaiting.  

 

 

[danny_galaga]

Definitely. A 90° turn is obviously much easier to accomplish. 

[facthunter]

Plenty of major airports have   terrible situations for Undershoot.  Nev

[facthunter]

Most people under stress will try to stretch the glide as well and get too slow. You can't stretch a glide by raising the nose and it's even worse if you have a headwind.   Nev

[onetrack]

The circumstances behind this crash just makes you wonder if any EFATO situation plan was ever discussed before takeoff. To start a LH turn and bank and then change that to a RH turn and bank after the EFATO, seems to me that no EFATO plan was discussed - or if it was, it wasn't followed.

[facthunter]

We don't even  know who was flying it with any certainty. THAT has also to be part of any pre take of brief..   Nev

[facthunter]

I don't wish to be too judgemental as we don't know exactly how this unfolded, but a common response is IF it could happen to this man what hope would I have?. Hours and lots of experience help, but do not guarantee the sure outcome in a risky situation we might expect and hope for.  Human Factors delve into this and that's often where the answer lies. Our Paltry effort wasn't done well and it's not a one off thing, where you tick it and you're good.  Nev

[RFguy]

"Hours and lots of experience help, but do not guarantee the sure outcome in a risky situation we might expect and hope for. "
Well said Nev. 
I wonder how many low altitude stalls occur with abrupt OR swift creeping  pulling the nose up in a 30deg banked  turn. In a banked turn, it's not as obvious the nose is pointing at the sky unlike straight .  Even if you have 'good airspeed' for the turn. If you pull the nose up (with plenty of airspeed) , it goes into a stall because you exceeded the AoA (and die) . I think that's not particularly well understood IE 10 knots above stall for your 30 deg banked turn is not a guarentee of safety.

Again, pulling back on the stick is the problem. In the EAFTO  and turn situation, lots of sh1t going on,  this might be a good time to have an AoA alarm.  The piper has one, but it's next to useless as it dimmly lights on the far left when it needs to be routed as a woop-woop into the audio system. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by RFguy

[facthunter]

It's always AofA. Stall stick position as the stick calls the AofA ,IF the configuration of the plane does not change. When things go wrong it's INSTINCTIVE to pull the stick back, same as it's instinctive to lift a dropped wing with aileron. The stall warning works OK on a Cessna. Most sophisticated cockpits have an AoA indication of some kind and good for a second reference (back-up) to your calculations anytime. Can show as a simple SLOW-FAST ribbon.  The old buffet is often there as well but not always. I've NEVER done an Unintentional stall. You may think I am lieing but what would I gain by that? Some dangerous self delusion? IF it's Happening to you DO SOMETHING about it or your luck will run out and you may take others with you. Pity we don't have more good training planes  where you can  extend to basic skills level without fear of the wings folding under you. What about the Whitney Boomerang?  It's designed as a proper trainer The LOW AUW prevents adequate strength with much of our  current choices. Nev

Edited October 26, 2023 by facthunter

[Thruster88]

Good post facthunter, except for the bit about wings folding.  Scary stuff,  fortunately that is not happening. We need all forms of pilot education to be factual and focused on the things that are causing serious "accidents", nearly all easily  avoidable. 

[facthunter]

Wings are still coming off planes and can easily happen if the Plane is not aerobatic certified and you overload or overspeed it.  I could easily have overstressed My Citabria if I was stupid enough to do it..  Nev

[Garfly]

20 hours ago, facthunter said:

Hours and lots of experience help, but do not guarantee the sure outcome in a risky situation we might expect and hope for.  Human Factors delve into this and that's often where the answer lies. 

And this is Blancolirio's account of yet another professional going down in a GA single.

Juan opines that an important safety device we'd do well not to forget is the common credit card.

 

 

[danny_galaga]

On 27/10/2023 at 8:23 AM, Garfly said:

And this is Blancolirio's account of yet another professional going down in a GA single.

Juan opines that an important safety device we'd do well not to forget is the common credit card.

 

 

I'm finding his channel very informative. I can't help but absorb it. Lessons from others mistakes are powerful 

[facthunter]

You won't live long enough to gain from your own and It's cheaper and smart.  Nev