Excessive Medical requirements

[Jerry_Atrick]

3 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Is there a chance of dropping the age. " discrimination " for ' car drivers ! .

If the doctor says ' good ' , why should " bureaucrats " over-ride that decision. 

spacesailor

Is there an age limit on the CASA medical. There doesn't seem to be one for the CAA. John Houlder, the late Elstree airfield owner had his medical into his early 90s.. in his late 80s he had to renew it something like every month or 6 weeks. I think after 90 he had to fly with a safety pilot. He died, I believe of natural causes aged 96.

[spacesailor]

 NSW

All 'car drivers 85 or over have to ' pass a practical driving test ' irrespective of their health. 

" Age discrimination "

Do you not agree. 

spacesailor

[kgwilson]

I don't think there is an age limit for a CASA medical. I read of a 90 something year old still flying Tiger moths in the Melbourne area & the CFI at Coffs was still training at age 90, and he smoked like Chimney. That's (lung cancer) what got him in the end.

[Jerry_Atrick]

10 hours ago, spacesailor said:

 NSW

All 'car drivers 85 or over have to ' pass a practical driving test ' irrespective of their health. 

" Age discrimination "

Do you not agree. 

spacesailor

Judging by two elderly US presidential candidates, cognitive ability does generally decline as one its into the older yers. So, as an absolute, I don't think it I ageist per se. However, as I have suggested on the other forums, I think, like the aviation sector, drivers should be tested periodically. OME pointed out the logistics of the number of drivers divided by the number of examiner would be difficult to achieve. But this could mean, like CAA (and I presume CASA) class 2 medicals, at younger years the testing is further apart (4 years)  and as one ages, it drops to 2 years and for me, now yearly, with an ECG every year (under 50 and its an ECG every two years). Maybe the test should be for cognitive ability in the same way he have period medicals for flying. but in GA world, are  Australian pilots  still subject to the BFR? Over here it is 12 hours of flying in the last 12 months and 1 hour instruction (they can't fail you - just recommend additional training) within 90 days of your  2 year anniversary. At least that's what it was in EASA.. not sure if the UK has since Reverte to BFRs... I am getting back into flying after a 3 year break or thereabouts, so I have to do a renewal. 

 

I dressed.. for cars, maybe up until 50 or 60; once every 10 years, then from 50 to 70 once every 5.. Would be driven by the medical stats  of the  population of drivers.. there will those In their 90s that have full faculties and good cognitive abilities, but I would imagine that is not the norm.

 

Loss of cognitive ability, I would guess is also not linear. So, I would think a driving  test over 85 once and nothing is pretty useless except for that point in time.

 

FWIW, I think the road law, fairly easy to test online should be done every so often. Today, a newspaper ran a quiz to see hoe much we retained of the road rules... I last did my road rules here in about 2008; I got 3 out of 15. Thankfully my daughter has the latest books as she is getting her provisional licence (L's), so I will be reading up to see what else has changed.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[440032]

"I want to just pass peacefully in my sleep, not screaming and with all hope lost like the passengers on my flight that fateful day...."

[kgwilson]

The problem in Australia is that each State has different laws so what is a requirement in one State in not a consideration in another.

[LoonyBob]

DAMEs - and the AMA - tend to be pretty conservative; without appropriate legislative guidelines, they tend to say "no"... aside from the legendary Helsinki Study, statistical analysis of the regulation of medical conditions is scanty, and based upon poor sample sizes.

 

Wanna crowdfund an exhaustive literature search and analysis of probabilities, to determine levels of safety in ICAO terms?

[spacesailor]

But the doctor has ' past me as competent ' in my ' medical assessment ' for driving .

" then " , the "bureaucrat " says  ' don't bloody care '. 

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

They usually make you do a driving test in those circumstances.  I know one old dear who always drove too fast failed the test because she did just that . Everyone had told her to slow down but actually she would need a reminder list to know why she went there. She was completely disorientated most times even in the local area.. The car just got more and more dents in the  extremes and was never serviced. She's no longer with us.  but the last few years for her were pretty grim.   Nev

[spacesailor]

That lady would have had a " driver assessment form " that her ' doctor ' would have filled out .

So if she was that BAD why did that doctor pass her as competent to drive ? .

 

I knew an old lady 79 who crashed her car  ' slightly ' . Resulting in ' loss of licence ! 

BUT 

If her doctor had done better work , she would NOT have lost her ' sight ' in her left eye .

They did save her right eye though .

SO,  the doctors Do get complacent ,

AND Today my daughter came with the ' wife & I ',  to make certain we get the best of treatment. 

A bit embarrassing all the same .

spacesailor

[turboplanner]

Self declared Medical

A short time ago in Melbourne a driver who fatally struck five people and injured several others at Daylesford appeared in the Magistrates Court charged with  5 counts of culpable driving causing death, 2 counts of negligently causing serious injury, 7 counts of reckless conduct endangering life.

The driver was an insulin-dependent diabetic who needed immediate treatment at the scene.

 

With a Self declared Medical you are on your own without the statutory protection of someone like a DAME, so the outcome of this case will be of interest to those thinking of going down the self declared route.

[BurnieM]

Agreed but with basic 5 likely to be restricted to 1 passenger, how is this different to what we have now with RPC ?

 

If anything the number of crashes with DAME signed off pilots appears to be higher. Not suggesting that this is a factor but am suggesting that self declared is an extremely small factor.

 

Yes you are legally covered but in many (most?) aircraft scenarios you are dead.
 

Edited December 11, 2023 by BurnieM

[Jerry_Atrick]

Doe having a medical absolve you of responsibility if you are incapacitated at the contrrols and cause an accident? It doesn't here which is why we carry 3rd party insurance. 

 

What about if you flew with a known ailment at the time? I would say the Daylesford driver would be in hot water even if he had a medical for driving: 

Daylesford driver ignored nine blood sugar warnings before crash killed five, court hears

WWW.THEAGE.COM.AU

---

The minutes before the Daylesford hotel tragedy have been detailed for the first time, as police opposed bail for the 66-year-old driver.

 

[facthunter]

IF you have ANY condition that would preclude you from exercising the PRIVILEGES of your licence . you should advise AvMed immediately. Who does THAT? 

[turboplanner]

15 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Doe having a medical absolve you of responsibility if you are incapacitated at the contrrols and cause an accident? It doesn't here which is why we carry 3rd party insurance. 

In this particular case what came out in the Court today was that Vicroads only found out the driver had a medical condition when he applied for a truck licence and once that declaration went on the record it was applied to his car licence by Vicroads. So far it appears this may not be relevamt to what unfolded, but important information for the people who have been arguing for a truck licence medical (self declared) in preference to a Dame medical.  It this was approved and someone decided to go for a self declaration medical then not declare it he's in big trouble, if he does declare it he's in middle trouble, but if a DAME approved him to fly and that was perninent to the case then the DAME would be the one who had to defend his decision rather than an unqualified pilot.

15 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

 

What about if you flew with a known ailment at the time? I would say the Daylesford driver would be in hot water even if he had a medical for driving: 

Daylesford driver ignored nine blood sugar warnings before crash killed five, court hears

WWW.THEAGE.COM.AU

---

 

In this case the operator knew he had a medical condition. His medical equipment gave him 9 warnings which he ignored and his medical condition appears to be the cause of the subsequent crash given that he needed immediate medical treatment on the spot, so we'll see the process and result in the Courts.

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

IF you have ANY condition that would preclude you from exercising the PRIVILEGES of your licence . you should advise AvMed immediately. Who does THAT? 

I did.. I broke my ankle in a motorcycle accident and as soon as I was out of hosptial, I fired an email off to my AME, who handled to comms to both CAA and CASA. Once I was ready, I had to undergo a minor medical to ensure all was OK.. Doc didn't charge me, but from memory, CASA wanted some money to process the information, so as I wasn't planning any trips to Aus until after the medical renewal was due anyway, I left it until then..

 

If they didn't want money, there was some administrative hassle that didn't make it worth it.. It was a while ago.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[spacesailor]

Over the " pond " .

An ' epileptic  ' had a seizure  at work , and was told if it happened again he would be dismissed for ' failure ' to take his ( male )  medications .

much later that year it happened again .

And he Was dismissed. 

His union Tried to get that dismissal overturned to no avail,  as he was given " written notice  " .

Concerning the importance of being Medicated while working with machinery. 

spacesailor

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by spacesailor

[Neil_S]

23 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Self declared Medical

A short time ago in Melbourne a driver who fatally struck five people and injured several others at Daylesford appeared in the Magistrates Court charged with  5 counts of culpable driving causing death, 2 counts of negligently causing serious injury, 7 counts of reckless conduct endangering life.

The driver was an insulin-dependent diabetic who needed immediate treatment at the scene.

 

With a Self declared Medical you are on your own without the statutory protection of someone like a DAME, so the outcome of this case will be of interest to those thinking of going down the self declared route.

 

For RAAus if you are either Type 1 or Type 2 diabetic (or epileptic, have heart condition, or mental illness) you require an annual form signed by your GP saying your health meets or exceeds that required for a driver's licence  - ie that your condition is under control. However, it is still the responsibility of the individual to take the meds that give that control.

For some reason this driver apparently ignored 9 warnings that his blood sugar was low and he needed glucose (eg jelly beans, or can of full-sugar coke). I cannot imagine why he would ignore the warnings. Same irresponsible behaviour as drinking alcohol and then driving. 

People I know who are insulin-dependent carry a pack of jelly beans in their car so they can stop and increase their glucose in such a situation. 

[IanR]

18 hours ago, facthunter said:

IF you have ANY condition that would preclude you from exercising the PRIVILEGES of your licence . you should advise AvMed immediately. Who does THAT? 

I did - when I was pretty sick ! Now waiting to get my medical approved 5 years later - long delays in CASA !!

[facthunter]

These are allegations and a trial will decide. There's plenty who drive when fatigued or are taking medications that affect them adversely/ HE certainly didn't do it on purpose or premeditated and would no doubt be remorseful afterwards.   Nev

[spacesailor]

That's a goog reason to hold , until you have a positive diagnosis. 

As long as you refrain from doing anything,  detrimental to your health .

spacesailor

[kgwilson]

The driver at Daylesford had over 30 speeding tickets though only 1 actual conviction. He didn't mean to run over & kill these people but he had a medical condition and was very aware of it but chose to ignore 9 warnings that his blood sugar level was dangerously low. He does not deserve to get off on the basis of medical misadventure.

[facthunter]

But He can't be called a murderer either. Fortunately you are not going to try him. The trial is yet to be held. It took a fair while to decide to  prosecute. I believe in fair process. That's all. I also have no idea what the  charges are.  Nev

[turboplanner]

Our interest in this case is the status of the Self-declared medical in the proceedings and any civil actions take by the relatives vs. the theoretical protection of the person in a similar type of aircraft accident.

 

We will have to wait for the court processes to see what is significant, so won't get a clear picture for 2 or 3 years.

 

 

[sfGnome]

Two things to think about. 
1. His phone won’t have been yelling “you’re low!”, it would have just gone ‘bing’, and were constantly told to ignore phone messages when we’re driving.

2. Diabetics who are having a hypo are often thought by bystanders to be drunk. I guess it’s a bit like hypoxia in that once it has taken hold, the sufferer is no longer in a position to deal with it.

 

There but for the grace…