Vans Aircraft suffering cash flow difficulties

[KRviator]

Kit prices going up 32%! Ouch....

From their announcement:

Quote

Following an intensive internal assessment and cost review, we are increasing most of our kit prices by approximately 32%. Our online order forms will be updated this weekend with the new kit prices. Prices of individual parts and components will also be increasing, some more than 32%, and others less. While these price changes are significant, they are also necessary.  Based upon our review of competitive products, even with these changes Van’s continues to be the value and performance leader in light aircraft manufacturing.

That's still not too bad - particularly if you go the standard kit route and live in the US... For the  RV-9A for example, it gores from $36,965 ->$48,793. That's not insurmountable, and about what I paid for my QB kits back in 2010, but you just have to assemble it yourself...You could still put an RV-9 in the air, in Australia, for around $120K if you go a SB kit, used engine and basic, second hand avionics. Not many people will though, so I'd expect to see used RV prices creep up around 10-20% over the next couple of years.

[Flightrite]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:03 PM, KRviator said:

Kit prices going up 32%! Ouch....

From their announcement:

That's still not too bad - particularly if you go the standard kit route and live in the US... For the  RV-9A for example, it gores from $36,965 ->$48,793. That's not insurmountable, and about what I paid for my QB kits back in 2010, but you just have to assemble it yourself...You could still put an RV-9 in the air, in Australia, for around $120K if you go a SB kit, used engine and basic, second hand avionics. Not many people will though, so I'd expect to see used RV prices creep up around 10-20% over the next couple of years.

Seen the latest RV listing (9) for $189K? It’s started!😂

[facthunter]

Money has lost a lot of it's value. Many things cost more now. That's what INFLATION is.   Nev

[KRviator]

2 hours ago, Flightrite said:

Seen the latest RV listing (9) for $189K? It’s started!😂

My -9A will be listed for $180-185K when I get around to it (or buy a 4-seater so I'm not grounded first!) - but to replace it as is would cost close to the $250K mark so it's not actually that unreasonable when viewed in context. And that's not even counting build time which we don't factor it! 

I was talking to a broker about a C205 that's for sale and they wanted $200K+ for it, with a prop that's due overhaul in less than 10 hours and only 100or so to run on the engine too. Never got a call back when I said now I realise it's DayVFR only, I'd only offer around the $120K mark,

[facthunter]

Why do we have 2 threads running on the same topic?.  Nev

[Thruster88]

Builders of Van's aircraft could cheapen the job by using an LS engine. Cletus who is a fixed wing and helicopter pilot and Carbon cub owner declined a ride. Aircraft starts at 4 min in.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Thruster88

[kgwilson]

What does it weigh? I turned the sound down as the redneck conversation drove me nuts. Single ignition so it would need to be very reliable. Also I wonder what the fuel consumption is.

[facthunter]

Ruined a good aeroplane. . I'm sure VANs would be appalled.  Nev

[facthunter]

They go to great lengths to warn about overpowering their Planes.   Nev

[RFguy]

what people ask for an airplane and what they actually get are of course two different things. 

[facthunter]

I'd be more concerned about how safe it is. Like how much weight is in the tail and can it exceed Vne in level flight. and things like single Plugs and the redrive quality.  All those clowns could do is giggle  and waffle. Nev

[RFguy]

 I'm assuming it weighs the same as a Lycoming+ a CS. Otherwise all flying quality and test data etc etc are all invalid

 

But, it's experimental- " it is what it is "

Edited December 23, 2023 by RFguy

[facthunter]

Unknown and unproven.  Flying doesn't HAVE to be that risky. . If you do that sort of thing don't come whinging when you're dead, but you might take other's with you. Test flying is not done with passengers.  Nev

[kgwilson]

A quick search shows the LS1 weighs about 425lbs and an IO360 about 280 to 330lbs so it would appear to have a reasonable weight penalty plus the redrive and rear counterweight for balance.

[facthunter]

Dog only knows how it's spin characteristics are affected also. they don't know WHAT(how much) they don't know.  Nev

[RFguy]

(nev beat mne to it)
The problem with a rear counterweight is that the whole system now has a higher (rotational) moment of inertia.

IE just because you balanced it on a set of scales doesnt mean you put it the way it was..

IE take longer to recover from a spin.  You've given a rotating object more rotational inertia. 

This would be , IMO , a  hazardous change  for an aerobatic aircraft that (was) permitted to do spins. 

 

The moment of inertia is proportional to weight times the distance to the centre of mass squared. Because it is radius squared, two bodies opposing do not cancel out because the square of anything is a positive number

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by RFguy

[facthunter]

More mass towards the extremes will tend to make the Plane spin more flat and harder to recover from.  Nev

[Thruster88]

2 hours ago, kgwilson said:

A quick search shows the LS1 weighs about 425lbs and an IO360 about 280 to 330lbs so it would appear to have a reasonable weight penalty plus the redrive and rear counterweight for balance.

The LS 350 ci engine may be more suitable as a substitute for the six cylinder Continental 520ci or Lycoming 540ci engines in terms of weight and horsepower produced. Not really a fan of automotive conversions, the devil is in the details.  

[facthunter]

Horses for Courses. The days of putting aero engines in cars are long gone and vice versa. Half the time you can't suitably mount them and that's well sorted in aero engines. Nothing's perfect.   Nev

[RFguy]

Yes, the LS might be one option for an RV10 if you couldnt buy a '540 anywhere.  An IO540 is going to make 300 hp. 

You'd want a 450cu +  LS if you were going there. not a job for a 350.......and it still wouldnt be as reliable as a IO540.

looking at prices...  it would be only worthwhile if you got the vehicle engine cheap.  A new io540 is abotu 60kUSD. you might be able to get one yuu can bulk strip for 10-15k and spend 20 on parts to get it back the air 

Certainly VH-experimental buys a bit of flexibility there.

[Flightrite]

The single biggest hurdle using an odd ball engine is resale! Vans machines take a dive value wise with anything other than a Lycoming in it!

Once you drive a turbojet/prop powered plane you’ll wonder why we stick to the most agricultural engine designs……..why?……. cause they work!

On another note there’s a $230K RV6 (girly version) on the market, the world truly has gone nuts now Vans is in a world of hurt!

Edited December 25, 2023 by Flightrite

[rgmwa]

Looks like Vans are hiring staff again, so hopefully that's a good sign.

https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=223245

[jackc]

On 23/12/2023 at 12:53 PM, kgwilson said:

A quick search shows the LS1 weighs about 425lbs and an IO360 about 280 to 330lbs so it would appear to have a reasonable weight penalty plus the redrive and rear counterweight for balance.

Benalla Gliding Club had an LS1 powered Pawnee as a tug. It was on a special 1500 hour permit and it went like a scolded cat dragging an ASK21 glider into the sky 🙂 

[facthunter]

The Benalla one had the all alloy Chev V8  pushrod motor (Detuned). Nev

[Flightrite]

That Holden tug crashed sometime  ago (I think they only had one), fuel starvation, he walked away, plane was ok I believe.