Light aircraft crash near Finch Hatton QLD. 28/10/23

[phantomphixer]

Courier Mail website reports that a light aircraft has crashed in remote, heavily timbered terrain in the Dalrymple Hills area near Finch Hatton, west of Mackay.

A rescue chopper has found the crash site where smoke is evident but it is in an area which is difficult to access. Ground personnel are trying to reach the site. 

[onetrack]

No further accurate info yet, but the reports are saying "grave fears" are held for anyone on board the aircraft. That's some real Tiger country up there, I've been through that region - "inacessible" is a good description.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12682293/Finch-Hatton-crash-responders-rush-scene-light-plane-crashed-mountainous-inaccessible-terrain.html

[onetrack]

ABC is reporting that rescuers have deemed the crash of this light aircraft "unsurviveable", and are presuming the occupants, a man aged 73, and a woman aged 75, are deceased.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-29/two-people-presumed-dead-in-north-queensland-light-plane-crash/103036876

[onetrack]

Crashed aircraft now identified as a Socata TB20 Trinidad - owned by the pilot, who appears to have been a citizen of Mackay. 

 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/347333

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by onetrack

[FlyingVizsla]

Alwyn and Jenny Rogash's remains found weeks after Finch Hatton plane crash - ABC News

WWW.ABC.NET.AU

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Alwyn and Jenny Rogash are being remembered as "active, enthusiastic aviators" after a plane crash last month.

 

[turboplanner]

Sometimes people get the jitters and ask how they can avoid the percentage chance of an accident like this.

The answer is flight planning AROUND country you can't land on.

I've been to the Finch Hatton area and Eungella National Park several times and the forest is thick enough to allow Platypus to thrive.

There's a Flying Fox thrill ride in there with trees so thick you get smacked in the head and legs on the way down.

There's no way you can survive an engine failure in the wooded area.

On the other hand if you spend some time flight plannning in Townsville there are plenty of safe routes from Townsville to Palmyra.

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Sometimes people get the jitters and ask how they can avoid the percentage chance of an accident like this.

The answer is flight planning AROUND country you can't land on.

I've been to the Finch Hatton area and Eungella National Park several times and the forest is thick enough to allow Platypus to thrive.

There's a Flying Fox thrill ride in there with trees so thick you get smacked in the head and legs on the way down.

There's no way you can survive an engine failure in the wooded area.

On the other hand if you spend some time flight plannning in Townsville there are plenty of safe routes from Townsville to Palmyra.

Planning to avoid - I agree 100% that is when alternative routes exist. Getting out of the Sydney Basin to the West & North is a risk reduction exercise, there is no safe route for RAA aircraft and only  a little safer for GA.

[facthunter]

Tall timbers on remote mountain Slopes are about as bad as it gets.  Nev

[BrendAn]

On 14/11/2023 at 11:14 AM, facthunter said:

Tall timbers on remote mountain Slopes are about as bad as it gets.  Nev

the xair manual says pick the smallest trees and pull the stick hard back just before you hit them at the lowest flying speed.

think i will stick to paddocks thanks😁

[Blueadventures]

On 14/11/2023 at 10:14 AM, facthunter said:

Tall timbers on remote mountain Slopes are about as bad as it gets.  Nev

I hear very little tree damage at site and tail slipping down the slope so very inaccessible location. Pretty much tail followed nose in. Was at 5,500 above and possibly orbiting looking for a hole as had phoned to get vis report at destination about 20 miles from crash site. Two independent persons at different locations reported hearing the impact.  Don’t have any other info.  Awaiting further info and hopefully a detailed investigation findings.  

[Thruster88]

ATSB preliminary report. Possible VFR into IMC.

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2023/report/ao-2023-052

[turboplanner]

This relates to Figure 1 from the above ATSB report, but in no way suggests what happened. I just think the visual is a good example to discuss identifying where we are in the mountains and picking the right valley to get us home.

 

We know that the intent of the Pilot was to fly down the Pioneer Valley.

If he was flying VFR just before he started the turn to the left, he would have seen the road that runs into the Pioneer Valley, but not the river.

 

As he turns toward higher ground, he may have been searching for the Pioneer Valley higher up; he was about to make it with a downslope ahead of him.

 

When he crossed the highest peak line he was on track to intersect the Pioneer Valley; when he turned left he was flying away from it.

 

One question I have is what mapping he had on board at that moment (or what mapping WE might have had on board at that moment.

 

Was Ozrunways or WAC chart be detailed enough to show him he was on track to intersect the valley and then that he had turned away from the valley?

 

For VFR flying you have to be able to see 5 km ahead.

 

There's an old adage for bushwalkers: "If lost never walk down, the valleys keep multiplying as you go. Walk up; there is only one summmit.

 

In this case he was going down.

How easy or difficult was it flying this track VFR to be sure you were intersecting the Pioneer Valley?

What were the key markers of this particular valley?

Where would you flight plan to intersect the valley?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

The ATSB final report is out.  The ABC news summarises it - loss of control on flight into IMC.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-02/mackay-light-plane-fatality-caused-by-pilot-error/104424164

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2024/report/ao-2023-052

[facthunter]

Keeps happening.    Nev

[FlyingVizsla]

The ATSB report noted that he flew this route many times, usually fortnightly, although he sometimes went coastal.  He mentioned he was entering cloud and had done that before, relying on Autopilot, but this disconnected.  Whether that was by accident (a 2 second audio alert would sound) or by exceeding parameters eg speed.  It may have been inattention after disconnection and / or disorientation in IMC.  I surmise that he was probably distracted by the beeping and was too engrossed in looking for the cause or how to re-engage the Auto pilot and was too slow transitioning from reliance on automation to flying on instruments.  After clearing the mountain, he swung around and hit it. 

 

A sad outcome for a couple of experienced aviators.

[onetrack]

The predictable result of many years of a highly complacent attitude, and poor procedures developing, without anyone picking up on his bad habits increasing. 

[Blueadventures]

Just terrible decision making.  Locals up here know the clouds build up in the Pioneer Valley area so many times a year this occurs.  They are missed up here.  The reason for the trips was to help with babysitting their grandchildren pretty much very fortnight so a big loss to families.  The usual 'why didn't', 'if only' thoughts have been worked over.  I expect he would have been looking for a hole in the cloud to get down to the clear air and came unstuck.  Please no replies just sharing my knowledge and thoughts a little.

[Ironpot]

47 minutes ago, onetrack said:

The predictable result of many years of a highly complacent attitude, and poor procedures developing, without anyone picking up on his bad habits increasing. 

I dunno. I don’t know the guy but this is a 2000 hr pilot; 1500 in this aircraft. Top of descent, 20 miles to run, 5500 to descend … I think he’s in front of the aircraft. And then …. the aircraft exceeds VNE???

 

I don’t think that incapacitation can be ruled out so easily. 

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

A sad outcome for all concerned.  A few things we will never know, regrets, "what-ifs", "could we have done more? and guilt.  Neat boxes called "Pilot Error" and "flight into IMC" "not licenced for IFR" when there were other variables that may have contributed in some small way to a catastrophic outcome.  The ATSB said incapacitation was unlikely as his wife was an experienced pilot and capable of taking over.  They say the autopilot disconnected (the flight was stable till shortly before the accident) and became a roller coaster ride.

 

Regardless, a family has lost their parents, grandparents, the aviation family have lost a couple of experienced pilots and friends.  Learn what we can; don't rely on the Auto Pilot and avoid IMC.

[Thruster88]

I could be wrong about this. The auto pilot in that 1985 aircraft gets roll and pitch input from a vacuum driven Attitude Indicator. Failure of the vac pump would result in a very difficult situation for any pilot. Only the electric turn coordinator would remain as a viable means of controlling the aircraft in IMC. Vac pumps are notoriously unreliable. 

[facthunter]

Could be a valid point. You shouldn't turn those pumps backwards  and they need regular checking.  Nev