Vans Aircraft files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

I was wrong about the US$1billion bailout. The bailout was $US85 BILLION shared between GM and Chrysler & then the US Treasury became the biggest shareholder of GM. GM sold a lot of its subsidiaries (Opel, Vauxhall etc) closed others like Holden & Chrysler & it's Fiat partner went on to eventually be swallowed by Stellantis now based in Amsterdam..

 

Neither company should have survived. They had become fat and lazy and were producing the same old stuff while Japanese car makers were producing vehicles that actually sold and the made a profit. GM though has morphed back in to what it was using its size & (too big to fail mantra) to try and bully the government in to letting them continue to produce stuff that the planet cannot sustain.

 

VANS on the other hand is a miniature by comparison and their products are good. They just failed to keep up with changing market conditions and rising costs and continued to make bad decisions till eventually filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. If VANS does survive it will be a very different organisation to what it is now.

Is it so hard to understand what "example" means without getting lost in a witch hunt.

There are people here who bought the Van's product, need Van's Spares and probably others who want to buy the product.

The examples simply show that under Chapter 11 reconstruction can take place.

Edited December 16, 2023 by turboplanner

[onetrack]

Corporate America is full of companies that got fat and lazy, lost sight of their objectives, ignored their customers demands, and fed on their own image.

Their boardrooms bred their own leaders - myopic, pathetic, greed-driven operators, intent on rewarding executives and shareholders with staggering unjust rewards, while they treated their employees like the enemy.

 

They let sharemarket scammers and bankers and oil companies rule their decision-making. They talked loud and long about "corporate ethics" - but there are virtually none in the corporate world. It's purely a greed-driven, dollar-driven, "what's in it for me" mentality.

 

There's a large tome been written about the failure of International Harvester, one of the worlds biggest and most profitable manufacturers.

The book is called "IH - a Corporate Tragedy". It's a worthy read. There's another one been written about the GM corporate disaster, it's called "Overhaul" by Steven Rattner.

 

In both the cases of the IH and GM bankruptcies, the revelations in the books are stunning. CEO's and executives who had no handle on what the company was doing, or where it was going. Dysfunctional accounting systems. Bad product decisions (caused by out-of-touch company leadership). Poor labour relationships. Shockingly bad corporate investments. Poor employee controls, with executives playing extended golf sessions during downturns, instead of addressing the real problems. 

 

Vans will never be the same because of the many poor decisions taken. The future of Vans is now in the hands of a ruthless bunch of lawyers, financiers and liquidators, who are all in for what they can scarf out for themselves.

 

They'll leave the picked-clean skeleton of the bullet riddled duck for the Vans aircraft owners to huddle over, because these people are the ravens of the corporate world.

Vans will never be the same company again - and even more so if outside bean-counters are installed in any new, revamped board. These people will target Vans aircraft owners as the new fat duck to be sucked dry.

[facthunter]

Chapter 11 allows trading while insolvent. There's no asset stripping or liquidation involved at this Juncture. It's still a matter of some concern for all involved.  Nev

[BurnieM]

Two points;

 

I have never received complete or relevant information from a company in receivership. Never.

 

Interesting that Sling Aircraft are addressing their recent massively increased demand by expanding their in house manufacturing facilities.  Yes they are a smaller company but appear to have a more strategic management. Not saying they are perfect.

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, BurnieM said:

Two points;

 

I have never received complete or relevant information from a company in receivership. Never.

 

Interesting that Sling Aircraft are addressing their recent massively increased demand by expanding their in house manufacturing facilities.  Yes they are a smaller company but appear to have a more strategic management. Not saying they are perfect.

A company in receivership which is shat we have in Australia has gone belly up, fininshed, doors closed, everyone sacked and in an instant is controlled by a Receiver who will make the decisions on getting the creditors their best outcome which is why you don't get information. Mostly there are auctions where various assets are sold. Sometimes the Receiver will decide to trade on in the hope of selling it as a going concern and you will then get information from the Receiver and his staff, and anyone he employs.

[facthunter]

Maybe good to know. but the Subject is VANS and Chapter11 In the USA.  It might be good to keep this going without digressing too much. till it is played out. Nev

Edited December 17, 2023 by facthunter

[turboplanner]

Ok, I'm out of it; you provide the answers.

[facthunter]

No need to take it like that, is there?  I just like to keep things tidy. Jeez I used Maybe and might.   Nev

[onetrack]

Vans has begun emailing clients informing them of alterations to current purchase agreements. In some cases, prices have increased beyond the 35% originally estimated and Vans have also been adding sales taxes to agreements where the owners are liable for sales taxes.

 

Kit builders can agree to the new prices or decline to pay them, whereby their previous deposits then join the pool of unsecured creditors.

 

Vans will also soon release its final engineering review of the laser-cut parts, which review includes fatigue testing of the laser-cut parts to determine if they're any more prone to fatigue-related cracking, than the punched parts.

 

The administrators of the company were also awaiting a judges decision on 19th Dec 2023, as to whether the company can use cash collateral and whether it can obtain credit.

 

It appears the ability to acquire credit was approved with no objections, but the proposal to use cash collateral has been deferred for 4 days as the administrators require extra time to complete the Schedules and Statement of Financial Affairs.

 

https://www.kitplanes.com/vans-begins-informing-builders-of-new-agreements/

 

https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/51583745/Vans_Aircraft,_Inc

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by onetrack

[Litespeed]

So does this mean they intend to use the laser kit parts for old kits and test , or is it also new kits?

 

To be honest, given the industry does not use laser parts unless final machined/heat treated, I would be concerned.

 

How can we trust a engineering report given their circumstances and recent history?

 

If the parts lasered are as  previously described, the answer would be No.

You can't substitute a inferior part and keep the design limits as the designer intended.

 

The article says they are testing coupons of alloy and finite element analysis. Not actual aircraft parts or assemblies. That I would not consider sufficient given the potential cracking. Most potential for fatigue cracking will not be apparent from such limited testing and modelling. But it does make it easier to get the result they want.

 

I hope I am wrong but it appears that's the case.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Litespeed

[Thruster88]

Good news, 65% is still a lot of kits.

 

Van's Resumes Shipping Kits, 65 Percent Of Customers Renew Orders - AVweb

WWW.AVWEB.COM

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Van’s Aircraft says 65% of customers have agreed to pay more for their kits and more than 100 of those kits have now been shipped. The company, which went into bankruptcy a month ago, says it’s ramping...

 

[onetrack]

Van's have released the technical reports on the use of parts with laser cut holes, and they have determined there are no safety or durability issues with them.

 

But they have also pledged to replace dozens of parts they have identified as being structurally critical, in each of the plane kits they manufacture.

 

The comments below the story are vastly more revealing and interesting, as regards the laser-cutting problems.

 

Van's Says Laser-Cut Parts Safe, Will Still Replace Some Of Them - AVweb

WWW.AVWEB.COM

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KITPLANES is reporting that Van’s Aircraft has released the technical reports on the use of parts with laser cut holes and it has determined there are no safety or durability issues with them. But it has also...

 

 

[Litespeed]

So as I expected the buggers can't be trusted.

 

The so called experts they had, have disregarded all current knowledge in safety to justify their complete lack of quality and safety in manufacturing.

 

Prior to this any cracks were a no no. Now it's no problem, physics didn't change but Vans wants us to accept their bullshit.

 

I would never fly or buy one that been made in the last few years and definitely not a new one.

 

What's next? Leave out every second rivet to save money?

 

Vans have now become the Boeing of light aircraft.

[Thruster88]

Seems there is no shortage of true believers in the Van's product, the man and the company. I am one.

 

 

 

[Methusala]

The great Aussie knockers are in full cry. How many are potential buyers, who knows?

[rgmwa]

13 hours ago, Litespeed said:

 

Vans have now become the Boeing of light aircraft.

I don’t think many would agree with that view, even those who have been affected by the problem. 

[onetrack]

I think it's a bit harsh to say Vans can't be trusted. It's obvious a lot of people still trust them. The problems appear to stem from inadequate QC, and inadequate specifications to suppliers.

As Boeing found out, when you outsource manufacturing, you must have intensive QC and strict specifications, that cover every foreseeable angle. 

 

In Vans case, it appears that they didn't consider that the laser-cut parts supplier would "make adjustments" to cutting processes, that caused the parts problems.

With all laser or plasma cutting procedures, the cut is initiated away from the desired finished cut alignment. The cut is initiated either in the inside of the portion to be cut out, or outside the cut-out area.

 

Ideally, the cut initiation is carried out inside the cut-out area and the cutter then moves to the finished outline and completes the cut, moving constantly to avoid blowouts or excessive heat buildup, if that is an important factor.

When the cut is initiated, there's always a small blowout from the heat generated at the start point, that enables the cutter to cut right through the material.

 

But the laser cutter employed, apparently started out doing their cuts from the inside - and then, without consultation, moved the start point for the cuts to the finished cut line - obviously to improve productivity.

This change to edge initiation of cutting caused a tiny blowout and excessive heat buildup on the finished edge, which led to small crack initiation when the plate was dimpled.

 

Van's have done the right thing, examined the problem and released the details of their examinations. The concern is that any small cracks caused by the undesirable cutting process might propagate when the aircraft is in use.

Van's have studied the potential for the tiny cracks to propagate, and have determined that it's not a safety concern for a large percentage of the parts. But where there is a safety concern, Van's have undertaken to replace those parts.

 

Boeing's problems developed from an attitude that safety took second place to profits. They suppressed and intimidated whistleblowers within their manufacturing operations, and lied to the FAA.

Boeing assumed more power over safety issues than they should have been allowed, and this was all to do with Boeings overbearing power over FAA employees charged with overseeing Boeing safety issues.

 

So I don't think it's fair to align Van's with Boeing, as Van's have shown they didn't put profits over safety, and their problems were more likely related to an inadequate number of employees engaged in ensuring QC processes were watertight.

[facthunter]

The only similarity is they both make aeroplanes but if you heat a hole it will end up in tension. Best to be burnished to size from a smaller hole.   Nev

[Flightrite]

Vans are still clawing their way out of the mess they created. Going forward trust will be their biggest stumbling block, many have had their fingers burnt.

I hope those that have been burnt find peace👍

[KRviator]

Updated their lead times I saw, still well in excess of a year-and-a-half wait for all the QB kits. And a near 50% increase in their cost. The -9A's now $74.5K for the QB - nearly $115,000AUD, then there's shipping and GST on top of that. You'd be exceptionally lucky just to get the kit here for under $135K. Bloody hell.

The 2-seat QB RV's are now a quarter-million-dollar build if you want a new engine ($41KUSD) & an EFIS. Just for my own interest, I keep a spreadsheet of my rough build cost and update it with price changes every 6 months or so. To do a one-for-one replacement of my -9 today,  you're looking at around $260,000.

[Thruster88]

A new Bristell with 915iS is listed at aud  $455,700 make the RV look like a bargain.  

[turboplanner]

17 minutes ago, KRviator said:

Updated their lead times I saw, still well in excess of a year-and-a-half wait for all the QB kits. And a near 50% increase in their cost. 

Australians in the post covid era have also been waiting 12 months to 2 years for their cars and that has only recently started to clear.

 

Chapter 11 can take four or five years to settle into a commercial reality.

 

Now isn't a good time to be crowing about their misfortunes; many companies come back hard.

Edited April 5 by turboplanner

[spacesailor]

That's were the Aussie Tax people . Are wrong .

They grab their tax & force the struggling company into bankruptcy. 

The only entity that forces you to.  'prove your Innocence '. 

In court .

spacesailor

[facthunter]

We have a pay as you earn based policy. If it gets a lot out of whack you can apply to do a revised return Part way through the Year. IF you get a lot back you have been overpaying.  Nev

[spacesailor]

And ' at a particular time ' of year you will pay their demand .

Not a cent less or a day late .

So spoke god  (ATO) .

spacesailor