Ultralight crash north of Grafton 12/12/23

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, Thruster88 said:

I believe all pilots should be reading all the accident reports applicable to their class of operation. I was aware of the Maule power line "accident". 

well i was not aware of it so i guess i am a muppet too. . wjy do i need to read it when i would never go under 500 anyway. i am too timid for that.

[Thruster88]

2 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

well i was not aware of it so i guess i am a muppet too. . wjy do i need to read it when i would never go under 500 anyway. i am too timid for that.

Low flying is only one way to kill yourself or innocent passengers. As a new pilot by reading you can become aware of the other common scenarios. We don't get this from RAAus so I would encourage you to read at the ATSB.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation-investigation-reports

[facthunter]

  Perhaps if we taught LOW flying we would be more aware of the risks. In fact it's not PERHAPS. it's neglectful of your responsibilities and I've always  thought and Said so. NEVER got anywhere. It was done in VH and I'm qualified to instruct  it there so what's the difference? When you take off, do an approach or a go around you must do LOW flying. as well as surveying a precautionary landing.  Nev

[BrendAn]

3 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Low flying is only one way to kill yourself or innocent passengers. As a new pilot by reading you can become aware of the other common scenarios. We don't get this from RAAus so I would encourage you to read at the ATSB.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation-investigation-reports

thanks t. good advice.

[facthunter]

I put Low Flying and Unusual  attitude recovery in a similar basket. ALL pilots SHOULD be trained in them to cope with the environment we ALL operate in You NEVER know when it will save the day for you and your passengers. You can't select a CALM DAY with no surprises Mode.  Nev

[turboplanner]

51 minutes ago, facthunter said:

  Perhaps if we taught LOW flying we would be more aware of the risks. In fact it's not PERHAPS. it's neglectful of your responsibilities and I've always  thought and Said so. NEVER got anywhere. It was done in VH and I'm qualified to instruct  it there so what's the difference? When you take off, do an approach or a go around you must do LOW flying. as well as surveying a precautionary landing.  Nev

Why on earth would we be silly enough to TEACH flying under 500 feet when our own statistics tell us that's where most powerlines are, and that's where there's little room for a recovery?

 

The rule was introduced to give pilots a chance to avoid common accident.

 

 

[red750]

@KRviator

 

I suggest you re-read these rules , particularly points 3 and 5 or your posts may be removed.

 

red750  Moderator.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Practice Forced Landings

The PIC MUST not continue the approach below 500' AGL unless approach is to an airfield runway.  Source: Part 141 Flying Training Operations.

 

Practice Precautionary Landings

Descent to 500'

 

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Well this might come as a surprise then. If a cable is not under 500 feet AGL a pilot flying legally will not hit it.

Sorry, should have read: If a cable is under 500 feet........

[onetrack]

Spare a thought for the mother and wife. What a dreadful way to start your Christmas, burying a child, as well as a bloke in the prime of his life.

 

The problem it seems, is pilots continue to crash in exactly the same way, despite their training, and despite all the crash report summaries.

 

How many times this year, have powerlines caught aviators out? There's probably 3 or 4 I can think of, straight up. All is takes is 10-15 seconds of inattention or distraction.

[Cosmick]

Aircraft identified as a Highlander 9 news

 

https://www.9news.com.au/national/lilydale-plane-crash-two-dead-in-northern-nsw-plane-crash/2c25a84c-5c69-4b12-939c-24f8d50379cb

Edited December 12, 2023 by Cosmick

[Jabiru7252]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

  Perhaps if we taught LOW flying we would be more aware of the risks. In fact it's not PERHAPS. it's neglectful of your responsibilities and I've always  thought and Said so. NEVER got anywhere. It was done in VH and I'm qualified to instruct  it there so what's the difference? When you take off, do an approach or a go around you must do LOW flying. as well as surveying a precautionary landing.  Nev

I was taught low flying, two things were made very clear, turns during low flying can make it appear you a skidding if there is wind and check and recheck for power lines and rising ground.

[LoonyBob]

I'm for training. Simce we stopped spin training in GA, incipient spin accidents have become a staple... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344638085_A_Review_of_Stall-Type_Accident_Statistics_Over_the_Past_Fifty_Years/link/5f864c9892851c14bcc698ed/download

 

(US ref. as Aus stats hard to find).

 

Since we stopped unusual attitude training, unusual attitude recovery accidents are on the rise.

 

Low level training gives a chance to understand that you have to get your nose well below the horizon in a low turn; and just how many powerlines are hiding out there. Both are pro-safety awareness, even if planning is meant to prevent the need for them.

 

I had the experience of inspecting the bloodstained wreckage of a certain RAAus 2-seater, about 20 years ago, that was - on the balance of very strong probability - downed by mechanical turbulence. The blood was from a father and young son. The height was safe, the speed was safe, the risk appeared to be small...

 

Someone has said that 90% of pilots think that they are in the top 10%... as Nev said, let us wait and find out.

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, Jabiru7252 said:

I was taught low flying, two things were made very clear, turns during low flying can make it appear you a skidding if there is wind and check and recheck for power lines and rising ground.

Many people were taught low flying, but it ended as I pointed out above.

My low lying was taught by the instructor flying us below ground level up  drain and of course next flight I was low flying across a swamp and suddenly realised the nose wouldn't come more than half way up the row of pines across the bank of the swamp nd I was too close in to turn.

One person killed himself on Christmas day by flying into his neighbour's power line in front of the waving children.

Another at Nelson, Vic had a wonderful lunch with friends then decided to fly between tow hangars and burned to death in front of them.

The new 500' AGL limit for precautionary and forced landings removed the excuses used above, but also would have been influenced by engines which didn't respond whether pilot mistake, carb ice, other during practice for foced landings and precautionarys.

 

[kgwilson]

I fly over that area all the time and have been there on the ground several times. Lillydale is a popular camping spot on the Clarence river. The area is relatively flat and is grazing country with trees dotted around. There is no comparison to the crash a few years ago when an aircraft flew into low strung wires across the Clarence and a young girl was killed. The pilot was prosecuted & imprisoned.

 

This one flew in to power lines & crashed on to the bank. How and why we will probably never know as at this stage there are no specific eye witnesses and no survivors of the crash. Campers heard the crash and saw the subsequent smoke from the fire.

[johnm]

if low flying is legally taught - it is in a defined area / zone where there are no dangerous low obstacles .............. such as wires

 

there is certainly a curiosity about flying low when you are a low hour pilot (generally speaking) 

 

a low flying area helps pilots to start to contemplate, consider and comprehend the dangers  

 

[facthunter]

It's done in VH but not allowed in RAAus, unless you are mustering? How does that compute?.  Turbs, your instructor was an idiot who just used your time  and money to have a dangerous play around. Did He sign you OFF.?  Have you since had the proper training? Nev

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

It's done in VH but not allowed in RAAus, unless you are mustering? How does that compute?.  Turbs, your instructor was an idiot who just used your time  and money to have a dangerous play around. Did He sign you OFF.?  Have you since had the proper training? Nev

The row of pine trees was good enough to last a lifetime. I was looking everywhere but straight ahead.

 

Low level VH is now limited to 500’ AGL; too many people in paddocks.

[TomJ]

Last thing I want to do is add to any speculation at this time, so please take this as an innocent question from which I can learn and nothing more...

 

I completed my 3-axis Microlight pilot licence a few years ago in the UK. A standard part of training for that was in cross-country navigation, and I needed to successfully complete 2 cross-country navigation flights. This was part of the *basic* licence requirements. And of course, navigation training had a heavy component in flight route planning including identifying all potential obstacles (antennae, power lines etc). 

 

But I notice that cross-country navigation seems to be an "add-on" for RAAus. Does the *basic* RAAus include the sort of flight path planning that the BMAA in the UK includes?

 

Not implying this has anything to do with this particular incident.

[peterg]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

Turbs, your instructor was an idiot

Only the instructor??

 

As we drift off topic ...  "Ultralight crash north of Grafton"  ... when I learnt to fly "Low Flying" was item 20 of the "Sequence of Flying Instruction" and below 500' & clear of cloud is sometimes used after an instrument approach (not so much now with RNAV) while manoeuvring to land. Many years ago  I had the unique experience of seeing the altimeter wind below zero while cleared to fly VFR Amman to Aqaba over the Dead Sea.

 

Back to topic - Ag pilots are trained and are clear about the risks and so are aerobatic display pilots and the military - most others aren't and with disturbing regularity come to grief - punishment is a poor deterrent - risk training as part of the basic syllabus backed up with some graphic footage may help

 

[Flightrite]

The most tragic part of this event is that it didn’t need to happen! Whilst we don’t know the full story (may never know) this does point to careless flying in a high risk environment! Imagine being remembered for taking an innocent life thru a reckless stunt? 
It won’t end here, there will be more, some are just destined to become statistics🙁

[facthunter]

So  what should be done about it? We ALL think "It won't Happen to ME"   Nev

[Keenaviator]

Aren't Highlander Aircraft (Just Aircraft) factory built? Laurie

[Kyle Communications]

I think you can buy a kit for them

Years ago I was looking at a SuperStol but ended up going with the RANS S-21 Outbound

 

[FlyBoy1960]

Anyone know the pilots name yet ?