Japan Airlines aircraft on fire after landing 2 January 2024

[Thruster88]

The CVR will be interesting. It is unfortunate the Dash 8 entered the runway at the touch down point, at the threshold it would have been a near miss.

[red750]

New details have emerged about this week's fatal plane crash in Japan.

 

The pilots of the Japan Airlines flight that collided with a smaller plane at Tokyo's Haneda Airport were initially unaware that their jet was on fire.

 

Flight attendants alerted crew in the cockpit to the unfolding situation, after the impact caused severe damage to the aircrafts intercom system.

 

There has been mixed reaction from passengers over the airlines handling of the disaster.

 

The revelations come amid new security vision that shows the coast guard plane stopping on the runway for about 40 seconds before the collision.

[onetrack]

Well, I guess that situation is typical, flight crew can't often see flames on the inside of the wing, between engines and fuselage, so they rely on cabin crew to alert them to what's happening, "down the back".

 

Airbus has complimented JAL crew on a "textbook evacuation", and I think the fact that all 379 people got off with no injuries is an outstanding effort, regardless of any errors on the flight crews behalf.

 

It appears the Captain of the Dash 8 may have been fatigued, he put in a sizeable amount of hours in preceding days, checking out earthquake damage and flying in supplies. He had also previously been getting takeoff priority, as a result of him carrying out disaster work.

 

Bottom line is - he was told ""JA722A Tokyo tower, good evening. No.1 taxi to holding point Charlie 5". This is certainly not clearance for takeoff - but with inoperative red lights at holding point C5, the Dash 8 Captain obviously thought he was "No 1" in lining up to take off. The problems stem from ATC not using better U.S. style ATC terms, such as, "Hold Short at runway", which is clear and unambiguous. Add in the fact that runway incursion warnings were also not operating on 34R, and there's all the holes lined up.

 

Also, sitting on a well-used runway for 40 seconds is not good. I've regularly heard "takeoff without delay" from ATC, as soon as we lined up on the main runway.

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

Well, I guess that situation is typical, flight crew can't often see flames on the inside of the wing, between engines and fuselage, so they rely on cabin crew to alert them to what's happening, "down the back".

 

Airbus has complimented JAL crew on a "textbook evacuation", and I think the fact that all 379 people got off with no injuries is an outstanding effort, regardless of any errors on the flight crews behalf.

 

It appears the Captain of the Dash 8 may have been fatigued, he put in a sizeable amount of hours in preceding days, checking out earthquake damage and flying in supplies. He had also previously been getting takeoff priority, as a result of him carrying out disaster work.

 

Bottom line is - he was told ""JA722A Tokyo tower, good evening. No.1 taxi to holding point Charlie 5". This is certainly not clearance for takeoff - but with inoperative red lights at holding point C5, the Dash 8 Captain obviously thought he was "No 1" in lining up to take off. The problems stem from ATC not using better U.S. style ATC terms, such as, "Hold Short at runway", which is clear and unambiguous. Add in the fact that runway incursion warnings were also not operating on 34R, and there's all the holes lined up.

 

Also, sitting on a well-used runway for 40 seconds is not good. I've regularly heard "takeoff without delay" from ATC, as soon as we lined up on the main runway.

The Holding Point is where you Hold until given "XXX Clear for take - off." You can also be give positions 1,2,3 because several aircraft could have been doing pre take off checks and it stops a race for the Holding line but this incident will be well-scrutinised within an inch of its life.

[kgwilson]

This is a clear case of Human factors issues or as the Japanese press release stated "Human error".

 

The main things being stress & fatigue. A lot of work in preceding days plus 50 minutes taxiing. How much sleep had the pilot had. Did he have other issues in his life affecting his decision making etc.

 

The fact that the red Stop Bar lights were inoperative is a minor factor but a factor none the less.

 

Given No 1 by ATC just means takeoff order and shows the Dash 8 had priority for takeoff, not approval.

 

The Japanese culture is generally to follow rules and authority. The CVR will provide any indication of whether the co-pilot said anything when the captain decided to enter the runway without clearance. The co-pilot may not have felt he should question the pilots decision for any number of reasons. The rest of the crew were probably oblivious to all of this.

 

To then sit there on the runway ready for 40 seconds is also odd. If they had clearance they would normally do final checks, flaps set, pitch full fine, spool up and go & on a busy runway this is often done at the holding point and just the spool up on the runway.

[Thruster88]

A collision occurred on the runway at Sydney in 1971 between two jets carrying 220 people. Only luck prevented any loss of life.

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1971/aair/aair197101202

[flying dog]

On 04/01/2024 at 9:54 AM, facthunter said:

The fact the Airbus stayed in one piece is remarkable. 

Isn't that to do with airbus planes are only 1 piece?

 

Where as Boeing are made of many pieces?

😉

[facthunter]

It's to do with how strong it is in this instance, It's a carbon fibre plane like a Boeing Dreamliner. THAT doesn't mean  that the Dreamliner is the same in strength. The early "twin Aisle" "Widebody" A series  AIRBUS's had a one piece milled alloy floor which is possibly the source of your" One piece" association, but the wings were rivetted on to the fuselage. I have witnessed it being done at the Factory in Toulouse.   Nev

[kgwilson]

The fuselage of a number of Boeing 737s that had landing crashes between 2010 and 2016 broke in to several pieces whereas earlier versions in similar crashes stayed intact. This was noted in a SBS doco produced some years ago when some ex Boeing employees became Whistleblowers. Boeing sacked these people to try and protect its reputation but there were some very sorry sagas of sub contractors providing sub standard fuselage ribs and visits to their factories to find various jigs and CNC equipment out of order due to lack of maintenance and staff making parts by hand.

 

The dollar rules and always has at Boeing, though they have made some excellent aircraft since the 1940s. The original mantra of "If it's not Boeing I'm not going" has now changed to "If it's Boeing I'm not going".

[facthunter]

They usually break into 3 pieces because rivet holes don't line up etc. By choice I NEVER flew the B737 of any model. The had rudder problems with the earlier ones due to  freezing of parts of the Hydrauic power controls causing a reversal. That was before the NEW management STYLE took over  of subbing out and wiping out Union Participation or any people "unhappy" with how things were done. Work done in Australia. (Wiliamtown NSW) showed the change that took over was intended and deliberate and PROFIT placed above everything.. They were "freaked out" by Airbus and in fact always have been. The B 737 Undercarriage is too short for the Later BIG engines. . The Large Losses and reputational damage must be considerable as well as the Lives lost. This Style of management is not uncommon in the USA.. and has been copied in many places where Wizz Bang Hotshots take over the Helm and a Race to the Bottom starts. Qantas under  the last CEO is another example. The Business world loves and admires these "Slash and Burn" Operators that treat their staff like$#!t. Nev

[flying dog]

I was only poking the hornet's nest and being a bit sarcastic.

 

[facthunter]

Let me know next time, then?  Nev

[kgwilson]

The US is and always has been very profit driven. While the Industrial revolution began in the UK and many people in Britain became very wealthy and by the end of the 19th Century Britain was the largest most powerful country on earth, it didn't last long with The US perfecting and enhancing manufacturing techniques with the birth of mass production catapulting the early entrepreneurs to millionaire & then billionaire status. Fast forward 100 years and massive corporations headed by ruthless management had become addicted to profit and wealth while steadily eroding the rights of those who made them that way.

 

Now it seems to have become ingrained in US society and government, so when huge organisations start to show their failings and these are exposed by journalists and eventually by total disasters, you guessed it they are kept propped up by the Government. General motors was bankrupt so the government gave them 13.4 billion as they were deemed to big to fail. Boeing is still going due to huge US government military contracts with the government cancelling contracts for airbus aircraft and throwing a lifeline to Boeing for inferior alternatives. How long this continues is anyones guess but chickens eventually come home to roost.