Crash at Boonah Golf Course 14/01/2024

[KRviator]

12 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

This accident hits close to home for me. One of the deceased is Dave Briffa, an instructor. 

That name rings a bell. I've a feeling I did a flight review with him several years back out of Boonah.

[RFguy]

A pet project of mine, actually Thruster88's idea is a into headphones (insertion, aux or inline) audible and visual warning  that a stall is imminent.  Really good IMUs for $7 are now available , along with  dual ported dual airspeed sensors (splice into ASI system) would  do this job well..... Would go a long way to preventing this . I have caught myself  occassionally not scanning my ASI often enough when I am busy looking at something, like for another airplane at the same time I am coordindating a tight descending turn etc  fortunately when I am missed the scanm for a few seconds, I've always had plenty of airspeed, and the airplane (PA28) is heavy and takes (forever) to slow down if I get careless. Unlike a 300kg jab which will run out of inertia three times as quick. 

[BrendAn]

33 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

This accident hits close to home for me. One of the deceased is Dave Briffa, an instructor. I talked to him the day before. I was going to go for a fly with him because the wind was a bit tricky and I hadn't flown for a little while. I didn't end up flying though. I was also going to have some tail dragger refresher flights in that P92 once it was online.

 

He was a good person and a great instructor. We always joked about how long it was taking me to build my plane. He almost always had a smile and was always interested to know what was going on with you. It's going to be strange for me to not see him at the hangar. 

condolences mate.

[facthunter]

High inertia bodies are slow to slow and slow to go when they get slow. .  In a tight spot I have flown on a Cessna C-172 stall warning   It's enough away from the  actual stall to have  the minimum margin. and you don't have to look at any instrument  Other AoA indicators are fitted to Big stuff and HANDY to have.

  STALLING a Plane is not something to just let happen..  Maintain control at  all times. Nev

Edited January 15 by facthunter
more content.

[tinydrip]

Extremely Tragic news. First "look see" RAA flight was with Dave back in 2011. RIP mate! Condolences to family and friends of both aviators. So sad...

[Methusala]

Please note that my comment on 'lightly-built' airframes was never a reflection on pilot behaviour. I feel every one of these sad losses.

[Area-51]

We may never find out what really happened unfortunately. Having flown with Dave, based upon his aptitude, level of patience and situational engagement, i would not expect him to allow a stall spin situation to develop through uncoordinated controls. Its possible he suffered a medical episode. The wind yesterday would of made it challenging at boonah; base final turn onto 22 would of been subject to left wing drop if the wind suddenly dropped off due to rotors coming off the south hills. We will never know. A great guy, and a great tragedy. The whole team up there and everyone involved would be in a lot of pain right now.

[KRviator]

6 minutes ago, Area-51 said:

We may never find out what really happened unfortunately. Having flown with Dave, based upon his aptitude, level of patience and situational engagement, i would not expect him to allow a stall spin situation to develop through uncoordinated controls.

I won't speculate on possible causes, but I will wholeheartedly agree with your comment above about Dave's patience and - I want to use the term ability, but that just suggests skill at a thing and doesn't quite cover it so I'm gonna invent the term instructorness to combine friendliness, ability, patience, knowledge and being a nice bloke to boot, made him an asset to learn from when I flew with him 15 years back. The first flight the KRviatrix made in a light plane was in Dave's Tecnam around the scenic rim too.

With a little luck, there'll be a G3X or SkyView fitted from which some data may be extracted. Whether or not the police or RAAus will release that data to improve flight safety for the rest of us is the million dollar question.

[dtanner]

Dave was a fine pilot, and I trained with him a handful of years ago. His loss will be sadly missed. My condolences to his wife and family. Regards Dave Tanner.

[Steve L]

Condolences to Dave’s family and anyone who knew him that have lost a mate and experienced instructor. Looking at the crash scene I find it hard to accept it was a stall, looks more like the P92 nosed into the ground, maybe a control issue. I’ll make it very clear I am not speculating, we need to let the authorities do their job and advise the outcome. The reason I say this is because ferrying a P 92 from Caloundra to Adelaide a while ago heading west at 6500 above Dalby I handed control to my low hour co pilot. Within minutes the Eaglet went into a full nose down attitude which took us both by surprise. I screamed at him it get his hand off the control yolk believing he was resting his hand on the trim buttons which he denied. Months later it was evident (actually proven) he was not manipulating the controls at all.
 

steve 

[Blueadventures]

5 minutes ago, Steve L said:

Condolences to Dave’s family and anyone who knew him that have lost a mate and experienced instructor. Looking at the crash scene I find it hard to accept it was a stall, looks more like the P92 nosed into the ground, maybe a control issue. I’ll make it very clear I am not speculating, we need to let the authorities do their job and advise the outcome. The reason I say this is because ferrying a P 92 from Caloundra to Adelaide a while ago heading west at 6500 above Dalby I handed control to my low hour co pilot. Within minutes the Eaglet went into a full nose down attitude which took us both by surprise. I screamed at him it get his hand off the control yolk believing he was resting his hand on the trim buttons which he denied. Months later it was evident (actually proven) he was not manipulating the controls at all.
 

steve 

How was it proved; event repeated itself and you where solo?   Thanks for info.

[Roundsounds]

On 14/1/2024 at 8:57 PM, BrendAn said:

A full flap stall in a p92 scares hell out of me. The left wing drops so fast , if you were near the ground you would have to recover it pretty quick  . Not that I have much experience yet. 

If any type of stall scares the hell out of you, you need to find a competent instructor to help you get over the fear. 
Takeoff and landing are far more risky manoeuvres than stalls at a safe height. 
I reckon the fear of stalling rubs off from instructors who also have a fear of stalling / spinning. 

Edited January 15 by Roundsounds

[Steve L]

Yes we found the electric trim kept running away, I had my wife with me, fortunately we were on the ground. I am not suggesting 

It was in this case but mechanical - electrical failures do happen, I hate electric trim. 

[danny_galaga]

Names officially released now. The second pilot was Armin Sickinger. 

[OzScot]

Condolence's to Dave's family and friends.  He was a true gentleman and allowed me to take to the skies a few years back with patient instruction, guidance and laughs.  Gutted to see this happen.  I will echo what was said above about Dave - a real professional and very safety focussed, which just makes what happened more confusing.

Michael

[turboplanner]

The CFI was the 69 yo and the student/passenger was the 82 yo

If you look at the Google Earth and take into account the location of the golf course, if they were landing it would be on 22

If you project out 45 degrees from the runway forthe base turn, the final turn would have been aproximately over the golf course entrance.

This could be another pointer to a stall/spin in the turn.  

 

This link to a Beech Queen Air stall shows just how fast the stall occurs; I count 3 to 5 seconds and that's about the delay time for a pilot in command to make a reaction to an unexpected signal. (We've discussed reaction times on another thread here - 2/100 to 5/100 when waiting for a known signal from a measuring machine; 2 - 10 seconds with an unexpected signal wher you have to identify what is wrong)

 

It's possible the passenger/student was flying and put on too much bank or too much backstick, but against this, they were making the Final turn from about the right place and directly on line for the runway, as against having overshot the turn.

 

If it was trim runaway, it was at a point where whoever was flying was about at the end of making a deliberate turn.

 

On the surface, they were at the right place at the right time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RocketShip]

I have found the trim on the Tecnam came sometimes get mistaken for the push to talk button. If you have flown another aircraft with the PTT button in the same place as the Trim button on the Tecnam

you can mistakenly press the Trim button thinking you are pressing the PTT button when making a radio call. Especially when new to this type of Trim control, or haven't flown for awhile.When it happens it takes you by suprise and there is the delay for your brain to work it out. By then you have a very nose down attitude and you are fighting with the control column to keep the nose up. Someone with less experience could get into trouble.

It is something you will only do once. It gives you a bit of a fright. Have never been a fan of Trim buttons on top of the control column.

 

Edited January 15 by RocketShip

[danny_galaga]

Dave was flying tecnams every day. But I don't know about the other pilot. 

[Markdun]

A runaway trim on the Tecnam is a known thing. There should be an AD on it. The microswitches wiring in the control stick has tight bends and the wiring fails and shorts. Failures tend to be intermittent and can’t be replicated on the ground with no engine vibration (ie. LAME’s report no problem, or problem fixed, when it’s not). We have found if you have trim failures in the air, DONT keep fiddling with the trim: fly the aircraft and switch the trim control to the other side which in most cases will still work.  I flew a Bravo from Kalgoorlie to Goulburn with the trim set to our cruise because it was a nightmare every time we tried to adjust it. We initially thought it was just bulldust in the ‘audio’ connectors used to drive the trim servo in the tail cone but no. It took the owner a gazillion tear downs of the control stick and wearing magnifying binoculars to find the fault in the wiring.

[Lightwing Bill]

The accident is a very sad event.   Sad for the two individuals and also sad for the families and friends.

 

Once again, the coroner will take over the evidence and the police will be instructed to determine who died, where and when they died, and the cause of death.   The coroner is not required to, nor does it have the resources to determine the cause of the accident.   

 

The ATSB says it will "help", but that may be no more than looking out the window at the weather or seeing if there is a media opportunity for the ATSB.   The coroner is not required to release its report to RA-Aus or the general, public. 

 

As a result, the cause of this accident like all RA-Aus registered aircraft accidents, is unlikely to ever be determined.  That puts us all at risk.  There could be a latent defect in the aircraft, checklists or maintenance procedures and we will never know until the "holes line up".

 

CASA has failed to comply with its own policy of achieving an acceptable level of safety and making our skies as safe as reasonably practicable.   The CASA CEO and Chairman of the Board have been alerted to the situation (as if they didn't know) and appear to have done nothing to rectify the situation.

 

The passenger's estate is unlikely to get any benefit from the RA-Aus Member's Liability Insurance Policy (MLIP) due to the lack of an official investigation into the cause of the accident.  The RA-Aus Board has refused to even put the process for making a claim on the RA-Aus website.   

 

The process for the passenger's estate to make a claim involves issuing a letter of demand to the pilot or pilot's estate.   That letter of demand has to include evidence that the pilot was negligent.   Evidence would be from an ATSB report if it existed.  The pilot then makes a claim against the MLIP to cover the letter of demand, up to the passenger limit of $250,000.  There is no evidence that that amount has never been paid by the insurer.  If that is the situation, it would appear that;

 

No ATSB report = no evidence = no payout from the MLIP.   I

 

It's a great policy for the insurer.

 

How many other unfortunate families of people who die or who are injured in RA-Aus registered aircraft accidents have found themselves unable to get some compensation from the MLIP?   Why doesn't RA-Aus reach out to these people and try to help them get some support from the MLIP?  The RA-Aus Board has refused to tell members what claims have been made in the past.

Does it bother you that the $600,000 pa RA-Aus insurance policy is not performing the way we are led to believe it does?

 

Does it bother you that we are flying in aircraft whose safety is compromised because RA-Aus aircraft accidents are not being investigated?

 

You will be with the "mob" if you don't care.   CASA also doesn't care as it appears to be only interested in the "big end of town".   The ATSB says it doesn't do sport and recreation aircraft accidents reports due to lack of resources, however it appears that the real reason is that sport and recreation aircraft accidents don't generate enough publicity for the Bureau.

 

It's over for the two blokes who died, but it is a long haul for the relatives and friends.   It is a pity that the organizations that we pay are not doing what can be reasonably be expected of them to prevent tragic accidents like this one.

 

What will you do to make the changes that are needed to make it safer for all and more supportive for those who are affected?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15 by Lightwing Bill

[Area-51]

2 hours ago, RocketShip said:

I have found the trim on the Tecnam came sometimes get mistaken for the push to talk button. If you have flown another aircraft with the PTT button in the same place as the Trim button on the Tecnam

you can mistakenly press the Trim button thinking you are pressing the PTT button when making a radio call. Especially when new to this type of Trim control, or haven't flown for awhile.When it happens it takes you by suprise and there is the delay for your brain to work it out. By then you have a very nose down attitude and you are fighting with the control column to keep the nose up. Someone with less experience could get into trouble.

It is something you will only do once. It gives you a bit of a fright. Have never been a fan of Trim buttons on top of the control column.

 

Did this on the tecnam sierra a few times myself in the beginning. Yes it does throw some surprise and excitement into the mix. Pushing the trim thinking it is the ptt could of happened on this occasion. Lucky each time it happened for me i was no lower than 2500' and worked it out almost immediately and corrected. A review of the trim motor position would determine this straight away. As with everything else causal above it is a speculation of possibilities. Any electric trim setup without a dedicated isolation switch on the panel to mitigate runaway is a recipe for disaster. After designing a custom stick grip with electric trim switches i decided to not connect them due to the ease and risk assessment (high probability, high situational impact) of an uncommanded operation occurring during both taxi and flight.

[KRviator]

23 minutes ago, Lightwing Bill said:

The process for the passenger's estate to make a claim involves issuing a letter of demand to the pilot or pilot's estate.   That letter of demand has to include evidence that the pilot was negligent.   Evidence would be from an ATSB report if it existed.  The pilot then makes a claim against the MLIP to cover the letter of demand, up to the passenger limit of $250,000.  There is no evidence that that amount has never been paid by the insurer.  If that is the situation, it would appear that;

 

No ATSB report = no evidence = no payout from the MLIP.   

No, it can't.

Under S.27 of the Transport Safety Investigation Act, you cannot use an ATSB report as evidence in any criminal or civil proceedings. While it'll certainly help direct other investigators, I've always been under the impression they, along with things like NTSB reports, cannot be used in legal proceedings, simply for the fact that if they could be, people wouldn't be as open to what happened, to the detriment of overall safety.

Coroners courts, yes, but that's it. Civil claims or if CAsA want to try to hang you from the yardarm for a violation? Nope.

[Markdun]

Bill, while I’m not aware of the details of the RAA insurance policy and you may be correct in that, it is worthwhile to point out though that a passenger’s estate has no legal jurisdiction to sue for the tort of negligence, or even a deliberate action for that matter. A person can only sue for civil damages if they have suffered damage, and according to law the death of of a wife or child is not damage unless it causes you nervous shock.  More importantly in most jurisdictions in Australia (we are a federation), except the A.C.T., tort law reform about a decade ago means that families of a passenger killed in an RAA aircraft even if they did suffer damage/injury (like nervous shock, loss of income, loss of ‘consortium’) would not be eligible as flying light aircraft is an inherently dangerous recreational activity that is obvious.  Further the little yellow cockpit warning signs makes it additionally apparent that the passenger knew of the risks and assumes the consequences of them materialising.  So in this respect I agree with you; the RAA insurance is pretty much useless for a passenger, and I think that is way it should be (though for children I’m not so sure). The thing is we should tell passengers truthfully about the risks; I do.  But it is not useless to a spectator injured on the ground or property damaged on the ground, or ppl in injured in say a GA aircraft you collide with etc.

 

Bt the way those same tort law reforms also severely restrict patient’s rights to sue doctors for negligence. The objective of the reforms was to reduce insurance premiums and was championed by active lobbying of our governments by big insurance companies who have a voice, unlike us citizens. Of-course no one has gone back and assessed whether insurance companies did reduce their premiums or whether they just increased executives’ salaries and returns to shareholders.

[jackc]

Does this incident bring to light the deficiencies of RAA Insurance?  Seems to me this needs to be investigated otherwise members could be compromised on what is deemed a legitimate claim? 

[facthunter]

Straight answers to straight questions. Is the COVER fit for purpose" It's oft quoted as a distinct benefit to being in the RAAus . Nev