110hp, 54kg, 1000hr TBO- Simonini Victor 2 super. Anyone with experience?

[micus]

This Engine looks unbelievable on paper for the LSA/ultralight crowd. Does anyone have any real world experience with it? Its 1/3 the price of a 912uls, looking for real world reasons to not love this thing.

 

Mike.

[facthunter]

I only Know it has been around for a while. Nothing recent.  Nev

[T510]

Specs are very impressive, no Australian dealer that I could find though

[onetrack]

It's a dinosaur. 2 strokes are being outlawed everywhere, and many manufacturers are ceasing production of them, so if you buy a Simonini 2 stroke, you may find it will either be illegal to import it, or it will have restrictions placed on its use in the near future. At the very best, you may find that you'll be purchasing amongst the last of the Simonini 2 stroke line, and when you go to get parts for it, you'll find you're the owner of an obsolete orphan.

[micus]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

It's a dinosaur. 2 strokes are being outlawed everywhere, and many manufacturers are ceasing production of them, so if you buy a Simonini 2 stroke, you may find it will either be illegal to import it, or it will have restrictions placed on its use in the near future. At the very best, you may find that you'll be purchasing amongst the last of the Simonini 2 stroke line, and when you go to get parts for it, you'll find you're the owner of an obsolete orphan.

Good points. I've never heard of a 2 stroke being outlawed or restricted in anyway?? I'm in Canada mind you, not sure what's happening elsewhere in the world. Mike.

[facthunter]

I think 2 strokes were outlawed in California. Not sure about other places. Rotax seem to be getting out of theirs.   Nev

[facthunter]

Their website shows dealers in many Countries. There's one in  Quebec. I don't know how current it is Easy to try.  Nev

[LoonyBob]

I think stronger emission laws are eating the profitability of 2-strokes...

 

I'd love to know how they get that power! Maybe it's more peaky than a Rotax?

[onetrack]

Micus - There's enormous environmental pressure on authorities and Govts to remove 2 stroke engines from general use, thanks to their polluting exhaust emissions profile. BRP ceasing manufacturing 2 stroke Evinrude outboards in 2020.

Other 2 stroke engine manufacturers have been reducing their 2 stroke engine emissions by adopting the likes of direct injection. Carburettor 2 stroke production globally, is tailing off very rapidly, as pressure to reduce emissions, bites in every area of engine use.

 

I found this reference (below) online that may be useful to you, so I would suggest you contact Transport Canada or the ECCC or your EPA to find out how long you've got left, to purchase and use 2 stroke engines. It will only be a few years.

In December, your Environment Minister released the Canadian EPA plan whereby production and importation of gasoline engines in vehicles into Canada, is projected to cease in 2035. That initially sounds like a long time away, but it's only 11 years. 

 

"Authority to regulate emissions from internal combustion engines in Canada rests with Environment and Climate Change Canada (ECCC) and Transport Canada. Under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act 1999 (CEPA 1999), Environment Canada has the authority to regulate emissions from on-road engines, as well as from most categories of off-road engines. Authority to regulate emissions from aircraft, railway locomotives and commercial marine vessels remains with Transport Canada. Regulations have been adopted to control emissions of criteria air contaminants (CAC) as well as greenhouse gases (GHG)."

 

Edited February 10 by onetrack

[Litespeed]

I would not worry too much, if you want one get it.

 

Simononi are not just a two stroke maker but manufacturers of parts for Formula one and have a good reputation .

 

 

[BrendAn]

On 10/02/2024 at 7:54 PM, onetrack said:

Micus - There's enormous environmental pressure on authorities and Govts to remove 2 stroke engines from general use, thanks to their polluting exhaust emissions profile. BRP ceasing manufacturing 2 stroke Evinrude outboards in 2020.

Other 2 stroke engine manufacturers have been reducing their 2 stroke engine emissions by adopting the likes of direct injection. Carburettor 2 stroke production globally, is tailing off very rapidly, as pressure to reduce emissions, bites in every area of engine use.

 

I found this reference (below) online that may be useful to you, so I would suggest you contact Transport Canada or the ECCC or your EPA to find out how long you've got left, to purchase and use 2 stroke engines. It will only be a few years.

In December, your Environment Minister released the Canadian EPA plan whereby production and importation of gasoline engines in vehicles into Canada, is projected to cease in 2035. That initially sounds like a long time away, but it's only 11 years. 

 

"Authority to regulate emissions from internal combustion engines in Canada rests with Environment and Climate Change Canada (ECCC) and Transport Canada. Under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act 1999 (CEPA 1999), Environment Canada has the authority to regulate emissions from on-road engines, as well as from most categories of off-road engines. Authority to regulate emissions from aircraft, railway locomotives and commercial marine vessels remains with Transport Canada. Regulations have been adopted to control emissions of criteria air contaminants (CAC) as well as greenhouse gases (GHG)."

 

brp never stopped making 2 strokes, they are called rotax now instead of evinrude but i think they use the etec powerhead and fuel system.

 

[meglin]

I've had some experiences. Completely negative. Unrecoverable shaking and power is not more than 60-70 hp. Complete helplessness and deception of dealers. Incomprehensible answers of the manufacturer. I do not advise anyone. The practical value of the Rotax-582 engine is higher.

[Matt or nothing]

I think it’s a great idea. I’ve been wishing I could get one to replace the 503 on my Kitfox. If I can figure out a good way to afford one, it will happen. People who run them have great feedback on their performance and reliability. It’s hard to believe they aren’t more common, but we have the power to change that. 
 

Easy, bolt-on replacement for the Rotax 582, with more power, better efficiency, and longer tbo. 
 

Here’s a link to an in-depth look at one man’s experience with a Simonini Victor in his Avid. 
http://avidsimonini.blogspot.com

Edited September 7 by Matt or nothing

[meglin]

Rotax also has 110 hp engines and the same weight. But all attempts to use them on airplanes were unsuccessful. The Rotax-618 engine was never brought to an acceptable level of reliability and was discontinued. I will be very glad if my information is outdated and Italian manufacturers managed to solve this problem. 

[Matt or nothing]

 I think that, with a positive approach, we can easily do things that most people would tell us we can’t. There’s no reason a two-stroke twin, with 802 cc displacement, producing 100+ horsepower, would be unsafe or unreliable. Two-cycle engines inherently have a higher power to weight ratio than four-stroke engines, because they have fewer parts, making them lighter, and because every downstroke is a power stroke. Fewer parts and simpler construction means fewer failures. Keep it light, keep it simple, keep it safe. There are tens of thousands of snowmachines with the same displacement, making 50-100% more power, that reliably take people up and down snowy mountains, covering vast distances across frozen terrain, suffering endless abuse, and rarely suffer engine failure. Rotax, Suzuki, Fuji, Yamaha, and Polaris all make fine engines for those machines. Simonini has a similarly good pedigree. Now, nothing is perfect, and certainly not idiot-proof. But, this is a proven concept, by a proven company. 
The world needs more people who are willing to do things. What if this is the best engine that we could possibly get, for its size, weight, power, cost, or reliability? What if it’s not? Either way, it looks this is a  fine engine for anyone who wants to make it work. If I manage to do so, I’ll let you know how it works out. And, I’d encourage the original poster to do the same. Maybe the best and safest aircraft engines ever made really were designed in the 1930’s and 40’s. Very little has changed since those designs. Maybe there is something better, if we try. 

[Red]

I dunno, Ive a lot of experience of 2 stroke motorcycle engines but only had a couple of rotax  503s and zero experience of this engine

Have to say the figures sound great and quite plausible untill you get to the TBO, has anyone actually done 1000 hours on the same crank and main bearings on this engine?

 

 

[onetrack]

I've seen a NOS Simonini engine for sale here locally, if someone is interested. Not sure why it was purchased, and never used.

[meglin]

There are goods that are not used, they are only sold and bought.

[jetboy]

There was one fitted to a CH701 in NZ, probably Canterbury area, all I could find is that it was replaced within a year with a Rotax 912. It should have been OK and I heard nothing bad about it.

First version of the 701 flew with a Rotax 447, many used 503 & 532 - 582 until the 912 became the most common. I've had a couple of Bantams with 503 but that was in the days when cranks didnt need replacement every 300 or 500  hrs - its the mtce rules which are set to kill off these engines. Only the 618 had a bad rep for cold seize after takeoff and the Hirth engines never became common here. I tend to think for a 2 stroke getting into the 100 hp area would be better as 3 cyl. inline, there used to be lots "on offer"  Konig Zanzoterra MZ301, Hirth 3701, AMW 808fi, Wankel Rotary GMBH VIP-3150 or the Diamond GIAE 110R / IAE 75R.

[Red]

I spent a big part of my early years maintaining and tuning 2 stroke off road Motorcycle and I still love em but they really are messy stinky orrible things, claiming a political agenda against them is a bit of a stretch I think unless you buy into the whole pollution = climate change denial thing

 

 

 

 

[BrendAn]

21 hours ago, Moneybox said:

Unfortunately this big fuss about polluting engines has more to do with marketing and politics than it has to do with protecting our environment. Take automotive DPF filters as an example. When exhaust particulate tests are carried out the exhausted air is quite clean as the filter is doing a very good job of collecting the impurities. What happens a few kilometres down the road? Have you ever been following one of these modern vehicles when they burn off the collected pollutants? There's a big cloud of crap released into the atmosphere once the vehicle is clear of the testing station. The same amount of soot and carbon is exhausted but it's cleverly collected during the testing stage.

 

I'm not saying our engines aren't a lot better than they used to be. You only have to drive drive down the road and once in a while you'll spot a vehicle badly tuned or worn out but in general our engines are much more clean and efficient. The thing is the same applies to many two strokes, they have come a long way in performance and efficiency but the data released in testing has little to do with the final result in normal operation. I had a quick whip around the block with Ralph Sarich in a little 1200cc direct injected 2 stroke. The performance alone demonstrated the efficiency of this engine and that was 20 years ago. Two strokes aren't necessarily the noisy smoky machines they are made out to be when you listen to the media and political propaganda.  

Sarich revolutionised the 2 stroke outboard . His engine was a flop but the injection was taken up by all the big outboard corporations.

[onetrack]

The problem with 2 strokes pollution is simply numbers. When you get billions of them as in India and China, the pollution levels are staggering. We're used to lots of wide open spaces, low population numbers, low numbers of two strokes, and plenty of dissipation of exhaust fumes.

[Red]

7 hours ago, Moneybox said:

Yes I'm a customer... I don't doubt our temperatures are all out of wack and our weather cycles in general. The icecap is melting too so it's a bit difficult to ignore but I think it has more to do with weather cycles than the damage we're doing to the earth. History shows these changes have occurred millenniums ago long before we overpopulated the earth and cut down the forests. You only have to walk under the canopy of the forest on a stinking hot day to experience the value of the tree cover but there's a lot of media and political mileage taken in the name of climate change.

 

Red, how long since your early years of maintaining 2 stroke engines?   

Decades, but I helped out a mate with a KTM freeride last month, I'm au fait with current stuff, it's got better but still stinky

 Never really stopped running and riding the things. But I've not owned a 2 stroke bike for about 4 years

As for climate change ill just leave you with the suggestion to investigate the rate of change in relation to pre industrial instances and leave it at that.

 

 

[BrendAn]

6 hours ago, onetrack said:

The problem with 2 strokes pollution is simply numbers. When you get billions of them as in India and China, the pollution levels are staggering. We're used to lots of wide open spaces, low population numbers, low numbers of two strokes, and plenty of dissipation of exhaust fumes.

dr karl was talking about this on the radio last week. he said a cheap 2 stroke leaf blowers puts more pollutants than hundreds of modern cars.

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, BrendAn said:

dr karl was talking about this on the radio last week. he said a cheap 2 stroke leaf blowers puts more pollutants than hundreds of modern cars.

https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/leaf-blowers-emissions-dirtier-than-high-performance-pick-up-trucks-says-edmunds-insidelinecom.html?emulatemode=2