How we teach stalls

[cscotthendry]

I had a situation some time ago and it got me thinking about how we teach stalls.

I was on a short final on a fairly gusty day. The gusts were varying 10-12 Kts above / below the stated wind speed. When I was about 150' AGL, the plane started an uncommanded left bank. I started to correct in the usual manner with a slight pressure on the ailerons, but the plane didn't respond as I expected it to. Thinking I was caught up in a Willy-Willy or rotor, I decided to go around. From my training, I pushed the nose over sharply, gave it full throttle and began bringing the flaps in. I've done plenty of go arounds, so they hold no mystery or fear for me.

I took me a while to figure out that I had let my airspeed bleed off and flying out of a gust, had put me into a stall. It wasn't anything like how I encountered stalls in my training / BFRs.

In training and review sessions, we're always taught to pull the power back, keep the altitude level by steadily pulling back on the elevators and then, just as the plane starts to buffet, snap that last little bit of elevator to make the nose snap over as we enter the stall.

 

But that's NOT how it happens in real life. The stall can be insidious and you might not recognize it as a stall at first. I'm certain that this has happened to too many pilots who didn't survive to learn the real lesson. 
 

I believe that including that snap over at the point of stall gives pilots the wrong impression of how stalls feel.

 

What say you all?

[turboplanner]

Good point; too many instructors just tick the box on power off straight ahead stalls.

[cherk]

?????No mention of rudder ????

[skippydiesel]

."..........snap that last little bit of elevator to make the nose snap over as we enter the stall."

 

This a new concept to me. My instructor & I did all sorts of stalls (attitudes/configuration/power on & off), no recollection of doing the "snap".

Cant see the point and as you say may lead the student to "the wrong impression"

[cherk]

4 hours ago, cscotthendry said:

When I was about 150' AGL, the plane started an uncommanded left bank. I started to correct in the usual manner with a slight pressure on the ailerons, but the plane didn't respond as I expected it to. 

I dont quite understand trying to correct via the ailerons in that situation , where MY instinctive reaction is apply opposite rudder  . Lift the wing with rudder , "fly the wing".

( in the situation you described )

[rgmwa]

31 minutes ago, cherk said:

I dont quite understand trying to correct via the ailerons in that situation , where MY instinctive reaction is apply opposite rudder  . Lift the wing with rudder , "fly the wing".

( in the situation you described )

If you think you are being rolled to the left by a willy-will or rotor rather than experiencing a wing drop due to a stall, it would be easy to apply the wrong correction.

[facthunter]

Applying the aileron is the instinctive reaction because you are usually flying with an adequate stall Margin. and the controls work as they are designed to.. If there's a possibility of a stall, DONT apply ailerons till you are certain there is no stall. possible. Certainly don't pull the stick back when the nose drops. THAT IS Instinctive and needs to be resisted. Pushing the stick forward and applying power with the nose held  about 6 degrees below the horizon will get you out of strife the quickest with the correct amount of rudder to  counteract the prop effect applied.. Nev

[Blueadventures]

This experience and your response will be a good additional request to your instructor at next BFR; even consider an early BFR.  I'm not an instructor and my head plan / response includes an increase in approach speed above usual for cross wind and gusting situations and on final keep on top of ASI numbers (glance every now and then especially late final if the airfield is short) and the windscreen picture and any movement of wing is corrected with rudder.

[facthunter]

There's plenty of formula's for gust and headwinds. One is 1/2 the headwind and all the gust. Wind is given usually as"110 at 25 knots GUSTING to 30" format.. In gusting conditions I would recommend a powered approach. The stall recovery technique I posted above I have only once demo'd in a U/L. It's too radical for the usual RAAus lot.. The height lost in the recovery from the extreme stall position which the "Jabiru" owner put it into was ZERO feet. Nev

[spenaroo]

I have a memory of a flight where I purposely kept it stalled while descending.

from memory it was power pulled to idle and pulling the stick back.

and showing that the nose would always drop in this aircraft un-stalling it.

I could be wrong, but it was part of the instructor getting me comfortable in the aircraft

Edited February 19 by spenaroo

[facthunter]

I can assure you I wouldn't have been comfortable and I don't think it's safe.. That might give you a false sense of security.   Nev

[Area-51]

11 hours ago, cscotthendry said:

I had a situation some time ago and it got me thinking about how we teach stalls.

I was on a short final on a fairly gusty day. The gusts were varying 10-12 Kts above / below the stated wind speed. When I was about 150' AGL, the plane started an uncommanded left bank. I started to correct in the usual manner with a slight pressure on the ailerons, but the plane didn't respond as I expected it to. Thinking I was caught up in a Willy-Willy or rotor, I decided to go around. From my training, I pushed the nose over sharply, gave it full throttle and began bringing the flaps in. I've done plenty of go arounds, so they hold no mystery or fear for me.

I took me a while to figure out that I had let my airspeed bleed off and flying out of a gust, had put me into a stall. It wasn't anything like how I encountered stalls in my training / BFRs.

In training and review sessions, we're always taught to pull the power back, keep the altitude level by steadily pulling back on the elevators and then, just as the plane starts to buffet, snap that last little bit of elevator to make the nose snap over as we enter the stall.

 

But that's NOT how it happens in real life. The stall can be insidious and you might not recognize it as a stall at first. I'm certain that this has happened to too many pilots who didn't survive to learn the real lesson. 
 

I believe that including that snap over at the point of stall gives pilots the wrong impression of how stalls feel.

 

What say you all?

The "Snap" manoeuvre with the elevator position you refer to is called   "stick stall position". The only time you need to use that is at touch down and most taxi situations in a tail dragger; or bfr stall display. Any other moment within the flight envelop expect things to get exciting really quickly. A well controlled stall will not drop a wing or nose, but the airframe will be loosing altitude like a brick. Releasing the back pressure off the controls will have the aircraft instantly resuming level forward flight. A well executed stall recovery in a light aircraft might see a loss of 50'-100' height. If its a really bubbly gusty day add VS1.5 to your approach speed. Intercepting a strong thermal on short final i think will scare the crap out of just about anybody.

[cscotthendry]

I see a lot of posts explaining how to handle stalls. But that isn't what I was discussing. I was talking about the standard method (that I've experienced) of Teaching stalls to students.

In all my lessons, and BFRs, stalls have been induced as I described. But that is not how I experienced flying into a stall.

In addition, when I'm inducing a stall with an instructor on board, by the time the aircraft stalls, I have the nose pointing at the heavens and the yoke back into my chest. Again, that is NOT how the stall I encountered happened. I was on a short final and the attitude was fairly close to normal for the approach and the yoke was somewhere near midpoint, with the trim set for best glide etc. In fact it all felt normal, whereas inducing a stall feels totally ABnormal to me when I do them with an instructor.

[Area-51]

The challenging part about teaching student pilots about stalls is that to just fly around until a stall situation unexpectedly occurs would usually require less than ideal flying conditions; the instructor is on the clock as well and has a syllabus to follow, and wants to arrive home afterwards. The important thing is that a student be able to recognise when the aircraft is in a stalled state and how to negate it successfully; there is nothing abnormal about pointing the nose to the stars to experience a stall; the relative velocity and AoA over the wings will be no different as flying an approach at VS and having a 10kt gust hit you from the rear, or a (x)fpm updraft clipping one or both wings... stall is a stall from any angle speed or attitude you can think of. The learning or need for additional training does not stop when you get handed your pilot certificate.

[facthunter]

The way stalls are shown you is near worthless, because that is not the way a stall will likely "present" to you in practice..  Nev

[cscotthendry]

7 hours ago, facthunter said:

The way stalls are shown you is near worthless, because that is not the way a stall will likely "present" to you in practice..  Nev

Nev:

That is consistent with my experience and my opinion based on that experience.

Edited February 20 by cscotthendry

[cscotthendry]

As a further point, when I was analyzing what happened I came to realize that you have very limited time to figure out what to do in the situation I was in. That is, entering a stall close to the ground.

In my case I've done lots of GoArounds as I stuff up landings pretty regularly. So a Go Around is something that I'm familiar and comfortable with. In the case I described, I initiated the Go Around almost instictively, even without knowing what was wrong.

It turned out that doing a Go Around happened to provide the solution to the problem, but I didn't know that at the time.

Contrast that with the recent death of the 16 year old who crashed on base/final and who may have tried to correct the wing drop with ailerons (as I started to do), rather than push the nose down and add power, as I did eventually.

I guess the point of this post is just to reinforce the fact that an accidental stall may not present itself with the same indications as an intentional stall. If you haven't accidently entered a stall (yet), be warned and be ready. But the positive is that the actions they teach to correct the stall do work.

[facthunter]

 The Concept of "Accidently Stalling"  Bothers Me and so does thinking "everybody does it. .You must be aware of a stall happening and not allow it to happen. . If it's likely to happen you MUST do something about it. or one day you won't be around.. It's that simple.  Nev

[Blueadventures]

My read of the post was that at 150 feet above ground level and short final wing dropped and applied some aileron.   I took that as late final (close to threshold) and slow approaching stall then wing drop.  My understanding is don't use aileron; use rudder to pick up wing and at same time get speed by either lower nose or throttle more rpm or both.  The use of aileron will add to stall of one wing; won't end well if stalling is in progress.

[cscotthendry]

31 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

My read of the post was that at 150 feet above ground level and short final wing dropped and applied some aileron.   I took that as late final (close to threshold) and slow approaching stall then wing drop.  My understanding is don't use aileron; use rudder to pick up wing and at same time get speed by either lower nose or throttle more rpm or both.  The use of aileron will add to stall of one wing; won't end well if stalling is in progress.

Mike:

That is all true, but you have to recognize it as a stall first. And as I mentioned, the circumstances and indications were quite different to any stall I've experienced in training or reviews.

My understanding also is, don't use aileron in a stall, But you have to first recognize that it's a stall.

[Blueadventures]

48 minutes ago, cscotthendry said:

Mike:

That is all true, but you have to recognize it as a stall first. And as I mentioned, the circumstances and indications were quite different to any stall I've experienced in training or reviews.

My understanding also is, don't use aileron in a stall, But you have to first recognize that it's a stall.

All good. I’m more saying reaction to a wing drop late in circuit to land.

[Roundsounds]

The current standard of flight training is appalling, particularly around recognition of an impending stall and recovery. 
I use scenario based events to train and assess pilots during stall sequences.
Pre solo the scenarios include recognising and recovering from impending and developed stalls in climbing turns, descending turns, balloon during the flare and bounced landing. Teaching stall recovery wings level, 1G is next to useless. 

[Thruster88]

I don't think I have ever seen a video of an aircraft stalling and hitting the ground without at least a quarter of a turn of rotation. The rudder can pick up a wing however its purpose is to stop yaw. No yaw no spin.

 

It is not that hard to fly correct airspeed at all times.

[facthunter]

You should be able to fly safely without airspeed indication, IF that happens, but no marks lost if you fly  a bit fast. Looking back on my training it requires an aerobatic aircraft to explore the boundaries of when Dynamic stalls happen and some fancy manoeuvre's at a safe height PRACTICE. Heightened seat of the Pant's awareness is part of it also and a head Up Display of fast slow is a great help.. I think it all started to go WRONG when we didn't have Planes like  The  Tiger moth and Chipmink to learn in. The whole deal has been "Dumbed down". No wonder people  get caught out . Planes are NOT like CARS.  WHEN a plane gets too slow it falls out of the bottom of the sky. Nev

[Roundsounds]

21 minutes ago, facthunter said:

You should be able to fly safely without airspeed indication, IF that happens, but no marks lost if you fly  a bit fast. Looking back on my training it requires an aerobatic aircraft to explore the boundaries of when Dynamic stalls happen and some fancy manoeuvre's at a safe height PRACTICE. Heightened seat of the Pant's awareness is part of it also and a head Up Display of fast slow is a great help.. I think it all started to go WRONG when we didn't have Planes like  The  Tiger moth and Chipmink to learn in. The whole deal has been "Dumbed down". No wonder people  get caught out . Planes are NOT like CARS.  WHEN a plane gets too slow it falls out of the bottom of the sky. Nev

The best primary training aeroplane around today is the ACA Citabria.