Rotax 4/ Oil

[Thruster88]

Skippy, if rotax has developed this new oil to maintain the reliability of the higher power, higher stress 915, 916 engines then it must also have some advantages in the base 912 engines which we can agree are very reliable. Is it not worth a few bucks to get better protection of your engine?  

[danny_galaga]

Yes, you could say the available choices for 912 carb engines has now doubled, so that's twice as good for those engine owners 😀

 

I will still choose shell.

[BurnieM]

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Skippy, if rotax has developed this new oil to maintain the reliability of the higher power, higher stress 915, 916 engines then it must also have some advantages in the base 912 engines which we can agree are very reliable. Is it not worth a few bucks to get better protection of your engine?  

My understanding is that it was developed for the heat levels of the 916.

So probably no advantage in using it in other Rotax aviation engines but Rotax says its ok so no harm in using it either.

 

I suspect the price will be higher than Shell so up to you what you use.

Edited March 6 by BurnieM

[skippydiesel]

13 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Skippy, if rotax has developed this new oil to maintain the reliability of the higher power, higher stress 915, 916 engines then it must also have some advantages in the base 912 engines which we can agree are very reliable. Is it not worth a few bucks to get better protection of your engine?  

It would seem my communication is wanting - is not about price as such , it's about choice.

 

By not stating the standard/specification for the XPS oil Rotax is binding the customer (for this oil) to their distribution network and to their price$/L.

 

As I understand the matte, this is of little consequence to most of the heritage 9 range BUT for the 912iS and some other engines, this is the only oil Rotax recomend. Owners of these engines are unable to shop around because they don't have the necessary oil standard/specification with which to assess other oils.

 

I feel this is an unethical act by Rotax, in line with what some automotive and machinery manufacturers have tried to implement (& failed due to court action). Manufactures must not force the customer to purchase only from themselves.

 

True! - for certified (at any level) aircraft, continued certification/airworthiness is dependent on using manufacturer's approved/certified service/repair components however this is by law not manufactures marketing ploy.

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

It would seem my communication is wanting - is not about price as such , it's about choice.

 

By not stating the standard/specification for the XPS oil Rotax is binding the customer (for this oil) to their distribution network and to their price$/L.

 

As I understand the matte, this is of little consequence to most of the heritage 9 range BUT for the 912iS and some other engines, this is the only oil Rotax recomend. Owners of these engines are unable to shop around because they don't have the necessary oil standard/specification with which to assess other oils.

 

I feel this is an unethical act by Rotax, in line with what some automotive and machinery manufacturers have tried to implement (& failed due to court action). Manufactures must not force the customer to purchase only from themselves.

 

True! - for certified (at any level) aircraft, continued certification/airworthiness is dependent on using manufacturer's approved/certified service/repair components however this is by law not manufactures marketing ploy.

I can only repeat what I said, which I thought was clear enough.

Manufacturers will specify a specific oil where they consider it necessary.

That is for the benefit of the customer, not some pathetic Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Rotax theory.

A friend of mine has a Caterpillar D7 Dozer; Caterpillar specifed a lubricant for a main driveshaft; he found a cheaper alternative; the failure cost him $45,000.00.

These threads are very informative and make a good case for LAME maintenance only.

Edited March 7 by turboplanner

[turboplanner]

It would be for anyone using sub-standard oil when the Manufacturer was trying to hekp them.

[skippydiesel]

11 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

It would be for anyone using sub-standard oil when the Manufacturer was trying to hekp them.

I am sorry for you Turbs - no one so much as hinted at using "sub-standard oil" in fact the the problem with Rotax not publishing the specifications for XPS prevents using any other oil, simple because without the aforementioned specifications the engine owner is unable to find an oil of the same (or even better) standard.

 

If you want to pursue your contention/ change the debat "Manufacturers will specify a specific oil where they consider it necessary. That is for the benefit of the customer, not some pathetic Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Rotax theory."  by all means do so but please don't infer that this directly addresses my argument. 

 

To your change in the debate:

 

In my limited,  non mechanic, experince (lifetime servicing/repairing own vehicles/equipment) it is rare that a manufacturer will specify a particular brand of oil,. Rather they will recomend (usually one of the major brands) with specifications . The specifications can then be applied to other brands, if the customer so wishes, thus meeting the engine/vehicle /equipment manufacturers standards.

 

Sure! if the engine/vehicle manufacturer recommends an liquid/oil with very specific qualities, that no other oil producer can match, there may be an argument to stick with that  - personally never seen this.

 

As for "Manufacturer was trying to hekp them" - you jest? Manufactures are about profit and risk minimisation/mitigation. The bigger they are, the less interest in the customers satisfaction, they are likely to be. Of course customer satisfaction is important but only so far as keeping a lid on dissatisfaction. If the manufacturer appears to be trying to "help them" this is only in so far as they help their bottom line  - "Brand Loyalty" being a big marketing aim. 

 

[turboplanner]

31 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I am sorry for you Turbs

Why, I'm not the one who's likely to be told "Not Warranty"

[skippydiesel]

6 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Why, I'm not the one who's likely to be told "Not Warranty"

You persist with the idea, that someone is going out of their way to use an inferior product (oil?) therebye, in this comment "Not Warranty"  - voiding warranty. 

 

Who has suggested this???? Quotes please.

 

This idea is either an unfortunate figment of your imagination OR a deliberate attempt to create an argument where there is none.

 

I will state again (will persistence pay off?) - my comments relate to what I see as Rotax forcing their 912iS (& some other engines) to purchase an in house product (XPS oil) that they refuse to publish the specification for  (Note: I believe this is a first for Rotax, previous recommended oil/coolant/etc having published specifications). I see this as unethical marketing - similar attempts by automotive/machinery manufactures, have been so found. Court instructions issued, to make proprietary information, available to independent mechanics and ultimately the public.

 

Just for you Turbs -  IF Rotax make the specification on XPS public, this will enable owners of affected engines , if they wish, able to research other oil manufactures offerings, to see if there ia an oil meeting (exceeding even) the standard set by Rotax for oil to be used in the nominated engines. At no time have I inferred/suggested/advocating using an inferior oil.

 

Using  product (oil) that meets the manufacturer's specifications can not be a cause to void warranty.

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

You persist with the idea, that someone is going out of their way to use an inferior product (oil?) therebye, in this comment "Not Warranty"  - voiding warranty. 

 

Who has suggested this???? Quotes please.

 

This idea is either an unfortunate figment of your imagination OR a deliberate attempt to create an argument where there is none.

 

I will state again (will persistence pay off?) - my comments relate to what I see as Rotax forcing their 912iS (& some other engines) to purchase an in house product (XPS oil) that they refuse to publish the specification for  (Note: I believe this is a first for Rotax, previous recommended oil/coolant/etc having published specifications). I see this as unethical marketing - similar attempts by automotive/machinery manufactures, have been so found. Court instructions issued, to make proprietary information, available to independent mechanics and ultimately the public.

 

Just for you Turbs -  IF Rotax make the specification on XPS public, this will enable owners of affected engines , if they wish, able to research other oil manufactures offerings, to see if there ia an oil meeting (exceeding even) the standard set by Rotax for oil to be used in the nominated engines. At no time have I inferred/suggested/advocating using an inferior oil.

 

Using  product (oil) that meets the manufacturer's specifications can not be a cause to void warranty.

Well you've talked yourself into a theory there posing your own questions and providing your own answers but what I was referring to is now many posts back. 

 

Manufacturing is not a perfect science yet and they still get to choose their own way of resolving issues, or achieving a longer life edge. They are free to choose a novel manufacturing process, exotic materials or exotic lubricants to solve a particular problem. Because there are a lot of people out there,  who use the same lubricant on everything, the cheapest lubricant, what their father used, what Dick Johnson used to use at Bathurst etc. the manufacturers usually change the part so they can get the same long term durability.

 

Sometimes the cost of the components or lubricant are higher, sometimes the manufactuer absorbs the extra cost of the exotic ingredient. Before 1992, when diesel smoke was still visible under acceleration and Police were issuing roadworthy infringements for "smoky exhausts" on near new trucks some of our fleets had problems in one particular area with one particular group of Police who would sit at the bottom of a long downgrade, and as soon as the driver put his foot down the exhaust would belch black smoke, the truck would be pulled over and a Roadworthy fine would be issued. Where the trucks were within warranty they would arrive at our dealer's workshop with instructions to fix it. We would pull the engine down, rebuild it, check it, and thee weeks later it would be back. The issue was solved at first by our Japanese engineers would found an exotic liquid, "PFM" which dissolved the particles and was airfreighted out in unbranded 20 litre dums. It cost a fortune but we delivered these drums at no cost to the fleets involved, they put some in with each refuel, and the problem was solved until I eventually brokered an agreenment with the local Police based on Ringelmann Chart 3. That's an example of solving a problem with an exotic specification.

[Reynard]

 

XPS aviation oil

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, Reynard said:

 

XPS aviation oil

WOW!!!!!! Its supposed to be a Rotax in house secret.

 

I take it all back/apologise - if Rotax has in fact made this information available to the public.

 

Dont know much about comparing oils with oils - usually just try to match the manufacture's' code  numbers & letter with what's on offer and stick with the better known (reputable?) brands. So far (about 50 years) so good. If in doubt (often) consult with the brand technician.

 

So anyone like to compare, the above Rotax XPS, with the reputable brands out there and see if they can come up with a match (likely to be a motorcycle oil)?

 

 

[Reynard]

“Over two-years’ worth of development, forty tested variations of fluids, 20,000+ gallons of aviation fuel and 12+ fired engine tests led to the final formulation”

 

From BRP.

[facthunter]

AND it wouldn't have to be done IF it wasn't necessary. Would it?  Nev

[BurnieM]

It appears that this XPS oil is not a normal 5W-50 synthetic without friction modifiers.

It appears to have a specialist/custom additive package.

[skippydiesel]

 

44 minutes ago, BurnieM said:

It appears that this XPS oil is not a normal 5W-50 synthetic without friction modifiers.

It appears to have a specialist/custom additive package.

My understanding:  the main concern, for Rotax, was the ability of the synthetic oil to handle AvGas ( scavenge lead). Straight synthetic oils being notoriously poor performers in this area. 

 

My guess: this concern is principally (not exclusively) for N American users of their (iS) engines - the use of AvGas, in Rotax engines, is still a hot topic in the N American Forums. The rest of the World seem to be reasonably happy with using ULP. The main benefit with AvGas is its availability at airfields - nothing to do with its suitability for use in Rotax engines.

[onetrack]

The oil specifications in Reynards list is a basic ASTM oil specification list. It does not list specialist additives, which can vary from oil manufacturer to oil manufacturer.

Lube oils are produced to basic ASTM specifications by the few oil refineries owned by the big oil companies, and then specialised additive packages are added by companies who engage in oil retailing.

 

I used Golden Fleece oil in my fleet of earthmovers, construction equipment, trucks, road vehicles and plant items for over 20 years.

GF produced very good quality oil - but it was made for GF by Caltex, because Golden Fleece never owned a refinery! But GF obviously selected the additive package, and I proved the superior performance of GF oils time and time again, after viewing and inspecting engines during strip downs.

 

In the "old days", oils varied substantially because the oil companies sourced crude from their selected source, or sources, and that crude came with a huge variety of undesirable ingredients.

Not a lot of people know that a percentage of sand is included in most crude! The refinery does its best to refine the crude to meet specifications, but often there are still a few undesirable chemicals in the final product. So the oil companies blend crudes from various sources, to reduce the impact of the undesirable residual chemicals.

 

Then came catalytic cracking, a big improvement over thermal cracking. New refineries could produce pure base oils from lower grades of crude oil, free of chemical impurities.

This is where the "synthetic" oils come from - the base oil from catalytic cracking is purer, more stable, less inclined to break down under heat and load, and less likely to acidify and oxidise.

 

The additive packages are trade secrets, and you'll struggle to find out anything about what the oil lab chemists are actually putting in the oil by way of additives. 

And the companies constantly find new additives, with vastly improved properties over older additives - so they can change from year to year.

If an engine manufacturing company advise you their branded oil is designed for their engine/s, you may pay a little more for it, but it removes any argument from engine failure claims, if you do use it.

 

Edited March 8 by onetrack
...spelling

[facthunter]

In the 80's I was a listed CASTROL agent and they only sell lubricants and my job was to get a suitable oil to the customer that was the Best for the purpose . Castrol  don't  give that job to just anybody. I also did theory and practice of lubrication at University of Technology, Sydney so I thought I could add something to the argument here. .Nev 

[skippydiesel]

A challenge those of you, technically versed in lubricant/oil technology, to come up with an alternative(s), full synthetic oil, from a major brand, that is as suitable as XPS BUT may not have the lead scavenging capacity.

 

Reason - in about 15 years or so of flying behind a Rotax 9, I have used AvGas perhaps twice and then only as a "shandy" with ULP (to get me to the next airfield where ULP more readily available). In short - I don't need the lead scavenging ability of XPS but would like explore the other beneficial characteristics of a full synthetic, for my engine.

[skippydiesel]

For Rotax 9 users who do not use AvGas - Passed on from the Rotax Owners Forum:

 

"Use either Mobile One Racing 4T or AmsOil Motorcycle oil. Both full synthetic motorcycle oils with ZDDP additive in them.."

Available in Australia:

• Mobile 1 Racing  4T about  $23/L https://www.m1oils.com.au/product/motorcycle-racing-4t-10w-40/
• AmsOil Motorcycle oil about $35/L (sold in imperial quantities)

 

[Reynard]

What’s wrong with Aeroshell Sport plus 4. @ $16/L ?

[turboplanner]

....passed on from a social media site???????

[Blueadventures]

4 minutes ago, Reynard said:

What’s wrong with Aeroshell Sport plus 4. @ $16/L ?

Absolutely nothing.

[skippydiesel]

On 10/03/2024 at 3:06 PM, turboplanner said:

....passed on from a social media site???????

Hardly - The advice is from one of the Rotax Owner Forum in house experts. If you can access it (as a non member) for the full discussion /advice: https://www.rotax-owner.com/en/general-tech-discussion/10053-xps-oil-for-912is?start=15

[skippydiesel]

On 10/03/2024 at 3:03 PM, Reynard said:

What’s wrong with Aeroshell Sport plus 4. @ $16/L ?

Nothing wrong with AeroShell Sport plus 4 - It's what I have been using for he last 15 years or so.

 

FYI prices range from $16.08/L - $28.50/L BEFORE DELIVERY, so be sure to check delivery cost which could be substantial.

 

I think you may be missing the point - It about oil options/choice for the Rotax owner.

The new Rotax XPS, full synthetic oil, has been developed to address high temperatures in fuel injected Rotax engines. It has recently been approved for the rest of the Rotax engine "fleet". 

It's only available through Rotax authorised suppliers/agents. I don't know what the price is but would expect it to be eye watering.

For those few (in Australia)Rotax owners using AvGas  - Apparently most full synthetic oils are not good at scavenging lead (from AvGas) but XPS has been formulated to do so. 

If you wish to explore the possibility of using a full synthetic engine oil, in your Rotax and don't use AvGas, XPS may be a step/cost too far for you - see the above advice from Rotax Owner Forum for  alternatives.