RAA's annual air show

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Have contacted the fuel company that will be servicing the Fly-In.

 

Person I spoke to, didn't know that many small aircraft use ULP and has no plans to make it available for the event.

bugger. i think fuel companys would be reluctant to send mogas out to an airfield.  leaves them liable if contaminants cause an engine failure.  

[skippydiesel]

"leaves them liable if contaminants cause an engine failure. "

 

What!!!!

 

This is hysterical/ill informed BS that serves no one well.

 

I have been using ULP in my Rotax 912 ULS for about 15 years - have yet to have a problem.

I use a filter funnel for all fuel in to my tanks and have a gascolator/filter before the engine..

Previse aircraft, used in line, transparent case, disposable filters - rarely had any  contamination on filter gauze.

Rotax recommended a minimum of 95 RON, I use 98 RON, just in case it has been adulterated with lesser grade - never had a problem.

In my short time associated with RAA, I have yet to hear of an incident due to contaminated ULP .

[Area-51]

21 hours ago, facthunter said:

Probably time expired.  Like we are. Your motor could run on LPG. or even town Gas. I don't really know what NATURALGAS is but that must be the best IF it's NATURAL.  Nev

Natural gas comes out of the ground; thats why its called natural; must be good for us, because it comes out of the ground; like potato... or a carrot... or like oil... ... 🤔... 🤔

[Area-51]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

bugger. i think fuel companys would be reluctant to send mogas out to an airfield.  leaves them liable if contaminants cause an engine failure.  

Criminal Negligence? Like politicians? Isn't engine failure caused by channel 7? 😕

[BurnieM]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

"leaves them liable if contaminants cause an engine failure. "

 

What!!!!

This is hysterical/ill informed BS that serves no one well.

Its not about reality, its about perception, like NGK sparkplugs.

 

Unless its high volume and they can make a large amount of money out of it 🙂

 

You never hear this about cars, motorcycles,snowmobiles, jetskis or outboards.

Lots more engine failures, some with fatalities and very rarely does anyone sue.

[spacesailor]

Hard to sue ,

When , DEAD .

Just stating a little fact .

spacesailor

[BrendAn]

6 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

"leaves them liable if contaminants cause an engine failure. "

 

What!!!!

 

This is hysterical/ill informed BS that serves no one well.

 

I have been using ULP in my Rotax 912 ULS for about 15 years - have yet to have a problem.

I use a filter funnel for all fuel in to my tanks and have a gascolator/filter before the engine..

Previse aircraft, used in line, transparent case, disposable filters - rarely had any  contamination on filter gauze.

Rotax recommended a minimum of 95 RON, I use 98 RON, just in case it has been adulterated with lesser grade - never had a problem.

In my short time associated with RAA, I have yet to hear of an incident due to contaminated ULP .

Just saying,  lots of places are reluctant to be involved as soon as you mention aircraft. You think you are the only person that runs on mogas. When you go and buy your jerry cans the servo don't care what U do with it.  You are asking a fuel company with no history of selling mogas for use in aircraft to send a truck out and fuel multiple aircraft ,of course they will 

Look at the legal implications.pretty stupid to think they won't. 

Our airfield has a new bowser setup with mogas and they have switched the two trainers, both 912 uls powered to it.  Those 2 have been on avgas their whole lives and never have any issues. 

You would be better served to contact Wade mahlo at orange airport and see if he can help. He owns Wade air aircraft refuelling.

 

Edited April 9 by BrendAn

[turboplanner]

I noticed this link www.flynforfun.aero

 

Exhibitors

ASRA Australian Sport Rotorcraft Association

Ozrunways

Bose

ATEC

Tecnam

Rotax

Jabiru

Foxbat

Avplan

Garmin

IOR Aviation

Australian Sport Pilot

 

The IOR Aviation story says"

“IOR Aviation draws from IOR’s foundation knowledge of fuel handling, distribution, and fuel management technology.
Through a dedicated fleet of IOR Aviation tankers, they supply Australia’s largest airlines, world class aeromedical rescue service providers, iconic tourism brands, general aviators, and the agricultural industry with a reliable supply of aviation fuel.”

 

Looks like it might be a bit bigger than some people have been portraying.

 

1 day 18 hours 3 minutes 23 seconds to go.................

 

[BurnieM]

Plus GAP so should be some Slings and Bushcat there.

[Deano747]

9 hours ago, BrendAn said:

 

Our airfield has a new bowser setup with mogas and they have switched the two trainers, both 912 uls powered to it.  Those 2 have been on avgas their whole lives and never have any issues. 

 

 

Rotax 912 requires oil change at 50 hour intervals on Avgas - 100 hour intervals on Mogas. The issue, besides lead fouling everything, is cost...........

[skippydiesel]

9 hours ago, BrendAn said:

Just saying,  lots of places are reluctant to be involved as soon as you mention aircraft. You think you are the only person that runs on mogas. When you go and buy your jerry cans the servo don't care what U do with it.  You are asking a fuel company with no history of selling mogas for use in aircraft to send a truck out and fuel multiple aircraft ,of course they will 

Look at the legal implications.pretty stupid to think they won't. 

Our airfield has a new bowser setup with mogas and they have switched the two trainers, both 912 uls powered to it.  Those 2 have been on avgas their whole lives and never have any issues. 

You would be better served to contact Wade mahlo at orange airport and see if he can help. He owns Wade air aircraft refuelling.

 

Maaaaate!: 

 

Fact - Rotax 9's are designed to run on unleaded petrol (ULP) minimum 95 RON.

Fact- Rotax 9's can run on leaded (AvGas) but in doing so it is recommended that the service (oil changes) intervals be halved and that the gearbox be removed for inspection/cleaning, at,I think, 600 hrs which is also half the interval for an engine run predominantly on ULP.-significant additional cost in fuel & service

Fact - Rotax 9s do not perform any better using AvGas, than ULP - possible exception for high altitude performance (not usually an issue in Australia)

Fact- In using AvGas you are unnecessarily adding  a lead pollutant to the environment - why do it if you don't have to?

Fact- This topic, Rotax 9's / use of ULP/Avgas, has been absolutely done to death.

 

All the hysteria (including the legal liability mumbo jumbo) about lower quality control standards for ULP compared with AvGas has been debunked - assuming  basic precautions are taken ie:

• Purchase ULP from a high turnover retailer (preferably a well known/established brand)
• Filtering fuel in to your aircraft tanks ie a use a filter funnel (best if it has a water separating function as well)
• Do your pre flight fuel sampling, to check for contaminants - keep sampling until no contamination in sample 
• Inspect/service your aircrafts in line fuel filters/water traps at regular interval
• Store ULP in sealed containers 75% + full - good for at least 6 months
• Add fresh fuel to fuel tanks, before flight (not after)
• If flying infrequently (my guess less than once a month) drain all fuel from the aircraft between flights

Speculation:  I think there is a strong case for businesses, using ULP,  for "off road" use ie powerig aircraft, to claim rebate on road tax portion of the ULP fuel cost - further reducing running costs.

 

As for aircraft fueling services - the reality is that in most instances/airfields the demand would be miniscule, compared with AvGas/JetA ie it would not be a paying proposition. They run a business, not a charity, it must pay its way.

I contacted the Parkes fueling service as a courtesy/completeness of investigating the supply of ULP at the coming event, not because I really expected them to supply/ provide this service.

I am still of the opinion that RAA (the event organiser) have failed to support their members in this matter.

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I am still of the opinion that RAA (the event organiser) have failed to support their members in this matter.

Did you see what I just posted?

Do you think he would set up a stand, but then pass up the opportunity to be front and central at the show for all visitors and rec flyers from his region?

[skippydiesel]

Turbs -

 

What initiatives exhibitors provide on the day(s) is for them.

 

When I enquired, about ULP supply, with the organisers, RAA, they had not even thought about it . After further discussion, sort of agreed to the cartage of fuel on the courtesy bus (Parkes town/Airfield)

[turboplanner]

7 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Turbs -

 

What initiatives exhibitors provide on the day(s) is for them.

 

When I enquired, about ULP supply, with the organisers, RAA, they had not even thought about it . After further discussion, sort of agreed to the cartage of fuel on the courtesy bus (Parkes town/Airfield)

Do you really want me to phone IOR?

[Blueadventures]

15 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Maaaaate!: 

 

Fact - Rotax 9's are designed to run on unleaded petrol (ULP) minimum 95 RON.

Fact- Rotax 9's can run on leaded (AvGas) but in doing so it is recommended that the service (oil changes) intervals be halved and that the gearbox be removed for inspection/cleaning, at,I think, 600 hrs which is also half the interval for an engine run predominantly on ULP.-significant additional cost in fuel & service

Fact - Rotax 9s do not perform any better using AvGas, than ULP - possible exception for high altitude performance (not usually an issue in Australia)

Fact- In using AvGas you are unnecessarily adding  a lead pollutant to the environment - why do it if you don't have to?

Fact- This topic, Rotax 9's / use of ULP/Avgas, has been absolutely done to death.

 

All the hysteria (including the legal liability mumbo jumbo) about lower quality control standards for ULP compared with AvGas has been debunked - assuming  basic precautions are taken ie:

• Purchase ULP from a high turnover retailer (preferably a well known/established brand)
• Filtering fuel in to your aircraft tanks ie a use a filter funnel (best if it has a water separating function as well)
• Do your pre flight fuel sampling, to check for contaminants - keep sampling until no contamination in sample 
• Inspect/service your aircrafts in line fuel filters/water traps at regular interval
• Store ULP in sealed containers 75% + full - good for at least 6 months
• Add fresh fuel to fuel tanks, before flight (not after)
• If flying infrequently (my guess less than once a month) drain all fuel from the aircraft between flights

Speculation:  I think there is a strong case for businesses, using ULP,  for "off road" use ie powerig aircraft, to claim rebate on road tax portion of the ULP fuel cost - further reducing running costs.

 

As for aircraft fueling services - the reality is that in most instances/airfields the demand would be miniscule, compared with AvGas/JetA ie it would not be a paying proposition. They run a business, not a charity, it must pay its way.

I contacted the Parkes fueling service as a courtesy/completeness of investigating the supply of ULP at the coming event, not because I really expected them to supply/ provide this service.

I am still of the opinion that RAA (the event organiser) have failed to support their members in this matter.

You keep omitting the fact that there is no detrimental effect to 912 if not more than 30% Avgas. If engine is 300 hours you can run next 90 hours on Avgas. You need to include such detail so those reading the post are better informed. 

[Blueadventures]

4 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Do you really want me to phone IOR?

If they attended would expect pricing to be similar or greater than the on site Avgas price. Considering being a one off and weekend ect. I’m a director of a small volume fuel company and see how fuel works year round. No doubt would be great to have unleaded 95 and 98 there.  I had planned to attend and my choice is 95; however circumstances changed and unable to attend. Have a great time those who get there.

[skippydiesel]

32 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

You keep omitting the fact that there is no detrimental effect to 912 if not more than 30% Avgas. If engine is 300 hours you can run next 90 hours on Avgas. You need to include such detail so those reading the post are better informed. 

My apologise - I tend toward verbosity, so tried for brevity/clarity of argument.

 

What you say is true, although your interpretation of 30% AvGas, would not be mine. I would, only if I had to, space my AvGas usage throughout the service period. Dont have a strong argument for this, just the way I would go. How about if trying to minimise lead build up better to use AVGas in a less concentrated way, than you described. 

As I have said - when all else fails, I have used AvGas but would very much prefer not to, for all the aforementioned reasons.

[skippydiesel]

41 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Do you really want me to phone IOR?

To what purpose?

If they supply - Great! If the don't! no change! - either way it does not change RAA failure to support a large contingent of their members/aircraft.

 

It's up to you.

[turboplanner]

50 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

To what purpose?

If they supply - Great! If the don't! no change! - either way it does not change RAA failure to support a large contingent of their members/aircraft.

 

It's up to you.

If you’re not going why did you raise it? 

 
iOR has a stand there. Anyone flying in who is flying in can call IOR and check the fuel available and price.

I can guarantee there won’t be any Mogas there. That’s a US blend of fuel.

[skippydiesel]

23 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

If you’re not going why did you raise it?  

Who said I wasn't going ??????? 

Flight plan just waiting for final weather before completion.

I will be going, subject the weather.

What does my attendance/not, have to do with the topic????

 
iOR has a stand there. Anyone flying in who is flying in can call IOR and check the fuel available and price.

I can guarantee there won’t be any Mogas there. That’s a US blend of fuel. 

I understand  MoGas  to be an American  abbreviation of MOtor Gas (petrol)

As far as I am concerned MOGas/ULP/Unleaded Petrol are all generic names/abbreviations for petrol fuel  - what is your point here????

 

[turboplanner]

15 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

 

So from what you've said

(a) RAA is bad because they couldn't tell you if fuel is available to suit you.

(b) You're going.

I guess you'll sort it out.

 

We had a series of threads on safe fuels where we weeded out the specifications, the motherhood statements that had seen people lose their engines, and the Australian fuels and grades suitable for aircraft use and how to manage them with their short time-expiry.  Most of this thread has gone off the track again, so I'd recommend owners to search for the detailed material.

 

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Maaaaate!: 

 

Fact - Rotax 9's are designed to run on unleaded petrol (ULP) minimum 95 RON.

Fact- Rotax 9's can run on leaded (AvGas) but in doing so it is recommended that the service (oil changes) intervals be halved and that the gearbox be removed for inspection/cleaning, at,I think, 600 hrs which is also half the interval for an engine run predominantly on ULP.-significant additional cost in fuel & service

Fact - Rotax 9s do not perform any better using AvGas, than ULP - possible exception for high altitude performance (not usually an issue in Australia)

Fact- In using AvGas you are unnecessarily adding  a lead pollutant to the environment - why do it if you don't have to?

Fact- This topic, Rotax 9's / use of ULP/Avgas, has been absolutely done to death.

 

All the hysteria (including the legal liability mumbo jumbo) about lower quality control standards for ULP compared with AvGas has been debunked - assuming  basic precautions are taken ie:

• Purchase ULP from a high turnover retailer (preferably a well known/established brand)
• Filtering fuel in to your aircraft tanks ie a use a filter funnel (best if it has a water separating function as well)
• Do your pre flight fuel sampling, to check for contaminants - keep sampling until no contamination in sample 
• Inspect/service your aircrafts in line fuel filters/water traps at regular interval
• Store ULP in sealed containers 75% + full - good for at least 6 months
• Add fresh fuel to fuel tanks, before flight (not after)
• If flying infrequently (my guess less than once a month) drain all fuel from the aircraft between flights

Speculation:  I think there is a strong case for businesses, using ULP,  for "off road" use ie powerig aircraft, to claim rebate on road tax portion of the ULP fuel cost - further reducing running costs.

 

As for aircraft fueling services - the reality is that in most instances/airfields the demand would be miniscule, compared with AvGas/JetA ie it would not be a paying proposition. They run a business, not a charity, it must pay its way.

I contacted the Parkes fueling service as a courtesy/completeness of investigating the supply of ULP at the coming event, not because I really expected them to supply/ provide this service.

I am still of the opinion that RAA (the event organiser) have failed to support their members in this matter.

2 answers for you.

no 1: i don't give a flying fire truck what fuel 912s use or don't use. i simply pointed out the latrobe aero club 912s were on avgas until recently.

no 2: i don't care what you do or don't do with your fuel. i just said look at it from the fuel distributors point of view.

and i thought i was grumpy. 

[skippydiesel]

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

2 answers for you.

no 1: i don't give a flying fire truck what fuel 912s use or don't use. i simply pointed out the latrobe aero club 912s were on avgas until recently.

no 2: i don't care what you do or don't do with your fuel. i just said look at it from the fuel distributors point of view.

and i thought i was grumpy. 

"...........what fuel 912s use or don't use..." Well there you go, that explains why you don't quite follow my concern about RAA's lack of foresight/ planning for the Parkes event.

"...........Latrobe" - that's somewhere in Mexico - right? Explains everything 😈

"...fuel companys would be reluctant to send mogas out to an airfield.  leaves them liable if contaminants cause an engine failure."

Mate - it was your (possibly unintended) suggestion of heightened risk in using ULP

"Grumpy" - Yep! got to that age - no intention to offend/ hope none taken🙃

 

[spacesailor]

l Am ,

offended.

Old but not grumpy .

yet

spacesailor

[spacesailor]

The wife says " the grumpy old men's club " .

spacesailor