RAA's annual air show

[BurnieM]

These were not top model prices.

 

For Sling 2;

a 9 year old, 300 hour kit built Sling 2 with 912ULS was on display, with new paint and upgraded avionics, Garmin G3X efis, G5 backup mini efis, garmin GTR200 radio, g3x controlled autopilot. $185k plus gst.

 

A new base model factory built Sling 2 similar avionics without autopilot $260k. 9-12 months delivery.

 

You can take a Sling 2 up to 300K easy with 912IS, second G3X efis, autopilot servos and controller, ADS-B transponder in/out and ballistic parachute. Over 300k if you add an IFR naviator.

 

Edited April 14 by BurnieM

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, sfGnome said:

A couple of points about the show (and some topics from various threads…)

• There were 3 slings on show. Bernie just showed you the dream machine. The Sling 2 is much more affordable (for various descriptions of ‘affordable’), especially in kit form. 
• If you want cheap, the powered parachutes were there (~$5k up for 2nd hand, $35k new). Take off easy from a small paddock. Fly low and slow. Sounds like a pretty good replacement  for 103 to me (but that’s not my thing, so don’t yell at me for suggesting it). 
• I had a yarn with the Dexter, the Atec distributor (haven’t seen him for years). The low Aussie $ is not making his job any easier. 
• I asked about CTA transit rather than full access, but the view was that the required training was the same for both, so there was no advantage in doing one before the other. 
• Errol (GAP - BushCat distributors) confirmed that BushCats were not being manufactured any more, but the parent company (who actually manufacture all the parts) was doing well and will be continuing to supply spares. He said that when sales started to decline, they put up their prices to maintain margin, which of course made sales decline even further ‘til it was terminal. 
• I was really interested in the AvPULP product. Essentially, mogas with guaranteed quality control end to end, and guaranteed no Ethanol and high end volatiles. Currently only available at one airport (Victorian, but don’t remember which one), but promising quite a few more within 12 months. It will only be installed at airports that will consume sufficient quantities, so don’t expect to find it at Upper Cumbucta International. They claimed that the price would be comparable with servo mogas. 
• Saturday crowd was mostly aviation types (ie all ancient - myself included), but Sunday was largely young families. Just maybe a dream or two were born in little brains. 🙂
• The only down side to the weekend that I noticed was that because the visiting aircraft were parked airside, you couldn’t wander around having a gawk. Had to satisfy myself with the ones parked in the under wing camping area that was accessible. Regardless, happy I went. 

Yltv. Latrobe valley has a new mogas ior Bowser , installed recently.

 

[jackc]

Shell do not have any oil in Australia for the new 912is motor.  Rotax will not allow any other choice even though there are other oils available that meet the exact specification.

NO Shell, NO warranty……

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, jackc said:

Shell do not have any oil in Australia for the new 912is motor.  Rotax will not allow any other choice even though there are other oils available that meet the exact specification.

NO Shell, NO warranty……

That would be what I would expect to see; inevitably people will go on social media and others will tell them they put "x" oil in their Rotax and its still going, they'll do the same, wreck the engine and trash talk it for the rest of their lives. You can't help some people.

 

[danny_galaga]

16 hours ago, facthunter said:

Since about 25 years ago I always do an arrival  on Google earth if I'm going to an unfamiliar Aerodrome. You get the surrounding features in your memory as IF you have actually been there before. In places like Queenstown NZ a sim ride or 3 is a good idea. Nev

You made me look that up as I was sure it wasn't that old. But as Google Earth it's about 20 years old though 😲 boy how time flies, seems like only yesterday...

Edited April 14 by danny_galaga

[jackc]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

That would be what I would expect to see; inevitably people will go on social media and others will tell them they put "x" oil in their Rotax and its still going, they'll do the same, wreck the engine and trash talk it for the rest of their lives. You can't help some people.

 

Knowing what I have been told, there is a lot of work in commissioning that new model engine to the point, I would not want one, even if it was FREE.

But I could see someone with a modern aircraft, drooling all over it 🤩 

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

That would be what I would expect to see; inevitably people will go on social media and others will tell them they put "x" oil in their Rotax and its still going, they'll do the same, wreck the engine and trash talk it for the rest of their lives. You can't help some people.

 

"That would be what I would expect to see;" - Agreed

 

"inevitably people will go on social media and others will tell them they put "x" oil in their Rotax and its still going, they'll do the same, wreck the engine and trash talk it for the rest of their lives. You can't help some people." - Can I assume you have heard of experimental/homebuilt/kit aircraft.

If so which part of experimental do you not comprehend?

• While factory built aircraft may limit a pilot/owners choice of materials, experimental does not.
• Those that choose to go the experimental rout do so, at least in part, because they have the freedom to exercise choice, their own intelligence & reasoning.
• Your dogmatic fear mongering is an insult to those who enjoy the challenge of making their own purchasing decisions and a failure to recognise that, historically, the market will almost always provide competitive products, that will meet exceed the specifications published by the manufacturer.
• At the moment there is  is at least one motorcycle oil that meets/exceeds all of the Rotax XPS oil specification, save one, lead scavenging.
• The lead scavenging component is of no interest to someone who uses ULP (lead free) exclusively (or almost so).
• In my mind it is not a question of suitability but of cost effectiveness - will the non Rotax oil be significantly cheaper and therefor worth the risk.

For Rotax 9 users who do not use AvGas - Passed on from the Rotax Owners Forum :

 

"Use either Mobile One Racing 4T or AmsOil Motorcycle oil. Both full synthetic motorcycle oils with ZDDP additive in them.."

Available in Australia:

• Mobile 1 Racing  4T about  $23/L https://www.m1oils.com.au/product/motorcycle-racing-4t-10w-40/
• AmsOil Motorcycle oil about $35/L (sold in imperial quantities)

[BurnieM]

5 hours ago, jackc said:

Shell do not have any oil in Australia for the new 912is motor.  Rotax will not allow any other choice even though there are other oils available that meet the exact specification.

NO Shell, NO warranty……

Not quite right.

You can use AeroShell Sport Plus 4 oil in 912UL, 912ULS, 912IS, 914 or 915.

 

The 916 is the engine that you need Rotax XPS oil for.

 

Rotax said there were only 5? 916 in Australia at the moment but this number is expected to grow as many manufacturers are starting to use this engine.

Edited April 14 by BurnieM

[jackc]

There IS a Penrite equivalent specification for 912is engine, but Rotax has the last word, use their Shell recommended oil or the warranty is toast 🤢 Right now it’s unobtainium in Australia, which probably means carry extra oil on any long flight.

As much as I hate it, car engines are not much different.

I remember when there was only 2 oils, Castrol and Castrolite 🤩 from memory, that’s fading now !

[jackc]

4 minutes ago, BurnieM said:

Not quite right.

You can use AeroShell Sport Plus 4 oil in 912UL, 912ULS, 912IS, 914 or 915.

 

The 916 is engine that you need Rotax XPS oil for.

 

Rotax said there were only 5? 916 in Australia at the moment but this number is expected to grow as many manufacturers are starting to use this engine.

And IF you want to upgrade from your 912xx to the new 912IS, you are in for a World of grief 🤢

[Thruster88]

I believe there was 4 Thrusters at Parkes. That is cheap fun flying. Could have been even more since a couple of mates and myself had other things on.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

"That would be what I would expect to see;" - Agreed

 

"inevitably people will go on social media and others will tell them they put "x" oil in their Rotax and its still going, they'll do the same, wreck the engine and trash talk it for the rest of their lives. You can't help some people." - Can I assume you have heard of experimental/homebuilt/kit aircraft.

If so which part of experimental do you not comprehend?

• While factory built aircraft may limit a pilot/owners choice of materials, experimental does not.
• Those that choose to go the experimental rout do so, at least in part, because they have the freedom to exercise choice, their own intelligence & reasoning.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with aircraft specifications, regulations or experimental categories.

This is a MANUFACTURER  (a company which manufactures engines, not sales outlets, competing brands and "experienced" commentators) specifying a specific oil.

 

I've said it twice, but its worth repeating; manufacturers can have design difficulties or make mistakes which can be fixed by certifying a specific oil. This can be an oil which meets a certified, so can be any brand which meets that standard, or an oil blended by a Manufacturer to fix a problem, in which case, if you want the longest life out of the engine, you'll use it.

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

• Your dogmatic fear mongering is an insult to those who enjoy the challenge of making their own purchasing decisions and a failure to recognise that, historically, the market will almost always provide competitive products, that will meet exceed the specifications published by the manufacturer.

It's not dogmatic fearmongering as you say; if something is correct the answer will be the same every time.

[facthunter]

Building a product that has to rely on cutting edge technology means it's a very critical thing to operate.  Ie NO margin for error. An  example IF the gearbox was separately Lubricated two oils could easily be found out there already .One for the Engine Onne for the red. gear and clutch.. Most engine gearbox set ups are separate, SAE 50 was a gearbox oil until the mid 70s when Borg Warner notified all users of their gearboxes it no longer met the specs not would any engine oil for road use.. It wasn't any change in the gearboxes The Market engine oil had departed from the specs due having to meet OTHER specs. In this case be catalytic Converter  Compatible so some friction/ anti scuffing additives had to be removed. Rotax is expecting  their oll to do multiple functions, some in conflict with others. That means compromise.. and less performance than would otherwise have been Possible. Multi fleet oils will not be optimum for each different use but you only have to keep one oil. That's the thought music. of the Marketers.   Nev

[jackc]

I can remember back when early Corollas has many gearbox synchro problems.

Fixed by changing to ATF oil. Engines and gearbox recommendations on modern engines gets more critical as time goes on.  All my machinery and vehicles here are old Dinosaurs that run on 15-40 mineral Diesel oil 🤩

[BurnieM]

Interesting.

According to Rotax service instruction SI-916 i-001R5 / SI-915 i-001R6 / SI-912 i-001R11 / SI-912-016R16 / SI-914-019R16 dated 21 Feb 2024;

 

You can use either AeroShell Sport Plus 4 or Rotax XPS Full Synthetic Aviation Engine oil in all Rotax 9xx series engines including 916

.

Edited April 15 by BurnieM

[sfGnome]

2 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

I believe there was 4 Thrusters at Parkes. That is cheap fun flying. Could have been even more since a couple of mates and myself had other things on.

Yep. There were 2 in the under-wing camping area. Don’t know what was on the flight line. 

[facthunter]

TQ DB was for Merc manual gearbox. ATF plus LUBRISOL was used  in some Ford gearboxes/ Hard to lubricate gears and have the synchro work well at the same time. I put Tractor oil Universal in the Dexta and the engine sounded like the bearings were not even there. You could here is a KM away. Checked in the sump. Nothing. Everyone said you have to rebuild the motor.

   Couldn't see how that would be necessary SO a new sump  of proper  diesel oil and a new filter Put newspaper over the radiator and run it at near boiling at 1300 rpm for about an hour and it's till going 53 years later, The rings had carboned up and the noise was the High pressure GAS BLASTING past them'

[Neil_S]

23 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Did the Parkes thing yesterday. Arrived  about 11:30 ish. 

I started listening to YPKs at about 20 Nm out and was astonished at the confusion ref the ACTIVE  runway.

While its the PIC's prerogative to land on whichever runaway he/she deems appropriate, it is customary/considerate of others, to fit in with traffic already in the circuit.

Runway 22/04 seemed in favour, with pilots (I think there were 3-4 involved) declaring for both within seconds of each other.

It all worked out okay in the end, with all opting for 22.

Unsure of the legalities however I feel that the RAA's decision not to provide some sort of ground to air guidance to arriving aircraft lead to unnecessary confusion (reduced safety).

I agree - and made that exact suggestion of UNICOM to RAAus after my arrival on Friday. There should have been a nominated runway that people could hear about 10nm out so they could plan their approach accordingly. Particularly if wind was light (as it was on Friday). Hopefully this has been taken on board. As I was on downwind for 22 I saw an aircraft taking off from 04, presumably because a) it was more convenient for them with less taxiing/bactracking from the terminal area, and b) the wind was light. 

 

Cheers,

Neil

[skippydiesel]

Check out the (comprehensive) visiting pilot instructions for the Vintage Aircraft Fly-In, Corowa.

 

https://antique-aeroplane.com.au/event-5658328#:~:text=COROWA%2C NSW 18-21 APRIL,days of fun and celebrations.

 

This is how it should be done

 

 

[BurnieM]

Australian Flying story

 

(the back of my head made a showing)

[skippydiesel]

 

43 minutes ago, BurnieM said:

Australian Flying story

 

"Fly'n for Fun, held at Parkes on the weekend, showed what support and planning can do when it comes to making a successful general aviation fly-in event."

Dont know which fly-in this journalist went to - his/her gushing report bears little resemblance to my, admittedly brief, visit on the Saturday.

"..........showed what ....... planning can do...." 

My observation - planning & attendance, well below past events at Narromine/Temora.

"RAAus and major backer AMDA Foundation have shown they know how to learn, making some fundamental changes that put the future of the event on a sure footing."

If they want to learn, they might just check out visiting pilot instructions for the Vintage Aircraft Fly-In, Corowa. This is how at least the advice to pilots and apparent planning should be done (Note: I have not visited this event in the past, nor have firm plans to do so this year, possibly the next. The well presented information document & pilot briefing ogers well, but may or may not be, reflected in the conduct of the event itself)

https://antique-aeroplane.com.au/event-5658328#:~:text=COROWA%2C NSW 18-21 APRIL,days of fun and celebrations.

"But unlike 2022, this year's event was not held on the airside area, which enabled underwing camping at a security-controlled airport, a feature often considered important for a successful fly-in event.

Visiting aircraft were parked in a rough (for small aircraft) grassed area, so far away from the event, that a shuttle bus was provided (good 10 minute walk) I would have thought that having the public able to view the many & varied visiting aircraft/talk to the pilots, would have been one of the most powerful advertising/ promotional tools RAA could have accesses and for FREE but nooooo. The staging of an event, like this, at a Security Controlled Airport is gobsmacking in its stupidity.

"........ products from several of GA's most prominent suppliers............."

Funny I thought that this was an RAA flagship event - sure GA are welcome, as are all in aviation .

"...............which demonstrated the bulk of the attendance consisted of flying people rather than general public. "

I stand to be corrected - An event like this is in part for the converted (pilots) but more importantly should also be to attract the next generation of pilots. That the public were not there in droves is a disaster.

"However, RAAus made the decision not to charge entry to the event,...."

To charge one must have a product that people will wish to purchase - this event was no such product

"Regardless, Fly'n for Fun clearly enjoys the confidence of both AMDA Foundation and RAAus, and both have plans and ideas to increase the event's presence and importance to the GA community in Australia."

RAA's membership money's should not be squandered on such a second rate event.

 

If this event is held at Parkes again - I suggest promoting to Event Management courses, as a demonstration of how not to do it - probably get droves of eger students🙃 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

On 14/04/2024 at 12:05 PM, skippydiesel said:

What has happened to affordable aviating ???? - crazy purchase prices and thirsty engines.

If you go over to the Recreational Aviation Australia website you will see at least one Recreational Aircraft under $10,000.00 and plenty affordable.

 

I agree with you RA is what RAA should be promoting, so there's a question RA members should be asking.

[RossK]

Having been there for the 3 days, I think you're a bit harsh Skip.

For me, the Security controlled airport thing is a non issue, the event wasn't airside - we camped next to the plane, with toilets and showers on site, breakfast included all for $20 for 2 adults.

It's 500m from the terminal to the event site, I was suprised they actually had a courtesy bus at all. 10mins must have been a leisurely stroll. The Courtesy bus also took you into Parkes for shopping, lunch, dinner etc.

There was a truck watering the taxiway to the event site to keep dust down.

Food vendors on site.

Breakfast and Dinner provided by the local Rotary club

Bar and evening Campfire

Toilets and Showers

Ground marshalling for those parking airside.

So clearly some thought has gone into the event to make it easy for attendees.

 

The pilot instructions issued were good enough.

Flying in - we all new it was going to be busy, it's uncontrolled airsapce. I was 5nm out when there was 2 in the circuit, 2 more joining and an RPT on a 10nm final for a different runway. We all communicated and sorted ourselves out. 

 

We had a lot of the general public come and talk to pilots in the camping area. Most loved the idea of flying somewhere and camping next to the plane, all good promo for RA.

Yes there should have been more RA focus and less GA stuff. GAP having 3 Sling TSI's was a bit much. The variety of the european plastic fantastics was good to see, prices a bit eyewatering though. 

Overall I thought the event was good and would go again.

Narromine is in the past, time to move on.

Was it bad? IMHO, No.

Can they make the event better, most likely - they have improved on 2022 so indications are they will.

 

 

Edited April 15 by RossK

[skippydiesel]

49 minutes ago, RossK said:

Having been there for the 3 days, I think you're a bit harsh Skip. Possibly  a bit but no more

For me, the Security controlled airport thing is a non issue, the event wasn't airside - So the public, who we should all be courting  for the future good of recreational aviation, got nowhere near the number/variety of aircraft that flew in we camped next to the plane, with toilets and showers on site, breakfast included all for $20 for 2 adults. That's a great price - imagin for a moment, that it had rained just before/during your stay  on the bare pad, your glowing review might change just a tad 

It's 500m from the terminal to the event site, I was suprised they actually had a courtesy bus at all. 10mins must have been a leisurely stroll. The Courtesy bus also took you into Parkes for shopping, lunch, dinner etc. Nothing new/clever about courtesy buses. They have been available, I think at Narromine (not sure) Temora, to go in/out of town. This is a basic standard, brings $ to the local community, facilitates motel/hotel accommodation, ULP acquisition (when not on field) often takes female partners to things/places that may interest them more than aircraft talk/looking.

There was a truck watering the taxiway to the event site to keep dust down. Wow! was the Committee convened to approve this innovation?

Food vendors on site. Ye Gads - you call that food??????

Breakfast and Dinner provided by the local Rotary club Nice

Bar and evening Campfire Even nicer

Toilets and Showers I am staggered at the luxury of it all

Ground marshalling for those parking airside. Very basic

So clearly some thought has gone into the event to make it easy for attendees. I would be embarrassed to suggest any thought at all had gone into this event

 

The pilot instructions issued were good enough. Maaaaate!

Flying in - we all new it was going to be busy, it's uncontrolled airsapce. I was 5nm out when there was 2 in the circuit, 2 more joining and an RPT on a 10nm final for a different runway. We all communicated and sorted ourselves out. This was/is RAA's annual expo - if it was being run by a volunteer group of mates, I know it would have been better (Check out Luskintyre promo for this coming weekend https://www.ozstol.com/events )

 

We had a lot of the general public come and talk to pilots in the camping area. Most loved the idea of flying somewhere and camping next to the plane, all good promo for RA. See above

Yes there should have been more RA focus and less GA stuff. GAP having 3 Sling TSI's was a bit much. The variety of the european plastic fantastics was good to see, prices a bit eyewatering though. Agreed

Overall I thought the event was good and would go again. I am glad you enjoyed it

Narromine is in the past, time to move on. ‘Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.’

Was it bad? IMHO, No. I beg to disagree

Can they make the event better, most likely - they have improved on 2022 so indications are they will. Good news indeed, the trend in organisation/planning is upwards.

 

 

 

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

 

maybe you should organise the next one skippy.  might stop you moaning for a while 😁