EFB Compatabity

[skippydiesel]

Random thought:

 

From the little I understand, it would seem that most of the EFB's (eg  OzRunways) available on the Australian market, have some form of what I call "poor man's radar" ie a way of displaying the position/relative height/ speed/direction of travel, of other, so equipet, aircraft in flight.

At the moment each EFB will only show other aircraft with the same EFB.

I feel that there is a strong safety argument for EFB's to show all other EFB equipped aircraft information.

Rather than RAA wasting time on the highly questionable benefit of aircraft weight category increase, they could be lobbying for either EFB suppliers to voluntarily provide the above capacity or if this is not forthcoming Government legislation to force the matter. 

[Deano747]

Like the idea of all EFB's talking to each other -

The Govt has gone some way to help us though.

The rebate for ADSB devices is pretty good - this will show ALL traffic with an ADSB out on your Oz runways - don't know about AVPlan or Garmin or Foreflight or any of the other contenders.

Not cheap - portable IN/OUT is > $1,000 before the rebate.

Portable IN only is ~$450.

Going to become compulsory in a few years if you want to fly into controlled airspace - not just Kingsford-Smith, but anywhere with a tower.

Edited April 4 by Deano747

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

Random thought:

 

From the little I understand, it would seem that most of the EFB's (eg  OzRunways) available on the Australian market, have some form of what I call "poor man's radar" ie a way of displaying the position/relative height/ speed/direction of travel, of other, so equipet, aircraft in flight.

At the moment each EFB will only show other aircraft with the same EFB.

I feel that there is a strong safety argument for EFB's to show all other EFB equipped aircraft information.

Rather than RAA wasting time on the highly questionable benefit of aircraft weight category increase, they could be lobbying for either EFB suppliers to voluntarily provide the above capacity or if this is not forthcoming Government legislation to force the matter. 

From what I read some time ago the EFB+EFB argument was lost then.

There's nothing wrong with visual flight rules but from what I see, a lot wrong with the people fling in congested areas and circuits starting with a belief that they should always get first priority and not fit in with traffic. Usually a narrow miss fixes that. I understad why people would like to have a cockpit indication or proximity warning, but once people start relying on it you need the same redundancy and build quality and training and currency as IFR, so you'd want to be doing a lot of hours per year to pay for it.

[skippydiesel]

Well Turbs, as a strictly VFR amature pilot, I would like all the help I can get.

 

I fly from/in the Sydney Basin, have dual channel transceiver, ADSB, OzRunways, eyesight and brain. The latter two, are dubious assets at best. The human eye is ill adapted to see other aircraft in flight and the brain, though astonishingly adaptable, makes very marginal three dimensional location "images"/spatial awareness, of aircraft, based solely on radio transmissions.

 

I don't know that the various EFB's operating systems have the potential to "talk" to each other but if they do, the low cost/weight, to enhance pilot spatial awareness of other aircraft in the vicinity can only be a good thing. 

 

I do not see "the circuit" as the problem area - generally pilots are where they should be in the circuit (or close to it) and other pilots know where to look for/avoid/fit in with, them. I find it's in the training area, approach to circuit/ lanes of entry, waypoints, where there is no specific requirement for aircraft positioning, that the potential conflicts seem to arise. It is in these areas that it's easy to miss seeing/locating another aircraft, even when they make the appropriate calls. Having a blue bubble/icon with the position in space and direction/speed of travel of other aircraft in my locality, would be of tremendous assistance.

 

"..............once people start relying on it you need the same redundancy and build quality and training and currency as IFR..........."

No offence intended but this is a spurious argument and indicates a level of conservatism that can only hinder cost effective safety improvements

 

"Way back when" I was trained, (in less congested airspace) radio communication was much more formulaic and frequent. My spatial awareness sharper. Since then radio communication has been liberalised  and frequency reduced. At the same time GPS/cost effective transponders have arrived and EFB have faux radar, vastly improving spatial awareness. Why not go the next logical step and have EFB's, of all types, "talk" to each other????

[Thruster88]

ADS-B is the ultimate system. Direct aircraft to aircraft, no dodgy mobile data required. Thanks to the rebate I have an ADS-B transponder in the RV now. Still use the SkyEcho2 for the IN bit displayed on the tablet with ozrunways. All IFR aircraft are equipped and more VFR aircraft are becoming equipped. As I fly I can see that my transponder is working correctly with altitude because the SkyEcho2 is seeing it and displaying it.

 

The inquest into the four pilots who died in the mid air at mangalore started this week.

 

See and avoid has limitations 

[BurnieM]

Garmin Pilot displays weather via an internet connection.

It only displays ADS-B equipped aircraft via BT to the aircraft ADS-B in (or SkyEcho etc).

 

A more widespread takeup of ADS-B would be very useful.

Anything proprietary (like EFB to EFB via internet) is subject to all software vendors getting it right all the time.

 

My iPad mini is cellular but I do not have a phone sim in it.

I have to set my phone to hotspot for it to connect to the internet.

I believe a lot of iPads are setup this way (no sim) on all EFBs.

(Using the cellular iPad version because it is the only one with a GPS in it)

 

Edited April 4 by BurnieM

[Neil_S]

22 hours ago, Deano747 said:

Like the idea of all EFB's talking to each other -

The Govt has gone some way to help us though.

The rebate for ADSB devices is pretty good - this will show ALL traffic with an ADSB out on your Oz runways - don't know about AVPlan or Garmin or Foreflight or any of the other contenders.

 

Hi Deano747,

 

AVPlan also shows the ADSB-IN info from your Skyecho (in green to distinguish from other AVPlan users in blue).

OZRunways did not want to share their users' info with AVPlan, instead saying people should all get Skyechos. Now they are Boeing, who knows?

 

Cheers,

Neil

[IanR]

I now have ADSB out on my aircraft. Have just purchased a uavionix PING ADSB receiver to display ADSB traffic on OzRunways. Have not tried it yet but should give similar input to the Skyecho at a fraction of the price. 

[mkennard]

6 minutes ago, IanR said:

I now have ADSB out on my aircraft. Have just purchased a uavionix PING ADSB receiver to display ADSB traffic on OzRunways. Have not tried it yet but should give similar input to the Skyecho at a fraction of the price. 

I think you'll find it's only ADSB-In

[mkennard]

The SkyEcho is out and in

[IanR]

2 minutes ago, mkennard said:

I think you'll find it's only ADSB-In

Yes exactly - I have out on the aircraft already so the skyecho is overkill. They do look like a good thing though.

[spacesailor]

Are they that  important on circuits. ( hopefully no downwind landings. ( unannounced )).

No electricity in my HUMMEL-BIRD.  So hand held radio only. 

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

5 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

Are they that  important on circuits. ( hopefully no downwind landings. ( unannounced )).

No electricity in my HUMMEL-BIRD.  So hand held radio only. 

spacesailor

Circuits? Not for me -  in the training area, approach to/departure from circuit, waypoints & lanes of entry, is where I like to have the extra "eyes".

 

Radio is radio  what matters is you have a device that gives two way comms.

Edited April 5 by skippydiesel

[spacesailor]

I have a three colour battery lamp for signals.

You never know !!.

Loud hailer. 

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

36 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

Are they that  important on circuits. ( hopefully no downwind landings. ( unannounced )).

 

spacesailor

I know of one airfield where the prefered (for locals) landing runway is nearly always the uphill and the take off, down - visitors need to exercise considerable caution.

 

Another field where the active, in light/nil wind,  seems to be at the whim of one of the clubs (the other being considerably more considerate), despite a convention dictating otherwise.

[RFguy]

ADSB rocks. But - 

The other day I was on a 'air highway' and  on my ADSB-IN on the tablet, I saw another aircraft flying right down my throat at same altitude 10nm ahead, they were flying the wrong hemispherical, I called them on centre (where they should have been) , no response, so I called them on the last CTAF I guessed they'd been on, contact established, and they descended .  System works.

HOWEVER, after the electronics did the job for me , as I was patting myself on the back for that, and thinking I just had to land in these windy condix, nothing else to worry about, 

I remarked,. to myself, as I joined circuit   not to forget that  there are plenty of aircraft still without ADSB, so not to get too fixated on the tablet for traffic.    Sure enough, two aircraft coming into circuit just behind me , neither with  ADSB.

But, more and more aircraft are joining the club daily, it seems.

[turboplanner]

11 minutes ago, RFguy said:

ADSB rocks. But - 

The other day I was on a 'air highway' and  on my ADSB-IN on the tablet, I saw another aircraft flying right down my throat at same altitude 10nm ahead, they were flying the wrong hemispherical, I called them on centre (where they should have been) , no response, so I called them on the last CTAF I guessed they'd been on, contact established, and they descended .  System works.

HOWEVER, after the electronics did the job for me , as I was patting myself on the back for that, and thinking I just had to land in these windy condix, nothing else to worry about, 

I remarked,. to myself, as I joined circuit   not to forget that  there are plenty of aircraft still without ADSB, so not to get too fixated on the tablet for traffic.    Sure enough, two aircraft coming into circuit just behind me , neither with  ADSB.

But, more and more aircraft are joining the club daily, it seems.

Therein lies the problem; Airservices, probably for legal reasons changed the primary method of approach and circuit separation from radio to visual.

Perhaps they saw there was a reasonably forseeable risk that there was going to be a collision because a radio would fail or one pilot might be on the wrong frequency, or their radios might go down etc. or the pilot may simply be flying without training and therefore they had a duty of care to guarantee none of those things could happen. Certainly people were regularly screwing up transmissions or not hearing transmissions or on the wrong frequency as you found out, so an impossible situation for Airservices.  With visual the legal responsibility rests with the pilot, who has the duty of care to scan, see and decide, and he pays out if he screws up.

 

The two aircraft coming in just behind you were operating to current regulations.

 

I'd be very interested to see the official position on ADSB as a replacement or in conjunction with Visual separation. Although a few people have talked about it and fitted cheap systems, I haven't seen any proposed legislation, any specifications, any standards such as TSO or any release to take your eyes out of the screen. Apart from that, if ADSB was introduced the liability issue would be much the same as radio.

[RFguy]

agreed and good points.

Certainly the combination of radio, eyes and ADSB (all three)  is an enhancement on  radios and eyes alone  . In this case above, might have been a very close pass. I might have seen their lights (I fly with my landing light and strobes ON) I might have seen them if at the split second I wasnt gazing out at something on the ground.   We all know how hopeless  eyes are trying to see an aircraft against terrain unless u know where to look . and Radio provides knowledge that they are out there somewhere and can be defensive or at least proactive with traffic.

 

The two of those (radio plus eyes) pretty much deals with 99% of it.

 

I find ADSB doesnt really give me more information except it is useful to plan / coordinate circuit entry/departure  and circuit vicinity contentions. It's excellent for enhancing proactive steps for that. 

Edited April 5 by RFguy

[turboplanner]

8 minutes ago, RFguy said:

agreed and good points.

Certainly the combination of radio, eyes and ADSB (all three)  is an enhancement on  radios and eyes alone  . In this case above, might have been a very close pass. I might have seen their lights (I fly with my landing light and strobes ON) I might have seen them if at the split second I wasnt gazing out at something on the ground.   We all know how hopeless  eyes are trying to see an aircraft against terrain unless u know where to look . and Radio provides knowledge that they are out there somewhere and can be defensive or at least proactive with traffic.

 

The two of those (radio plus eyes) pretty much deals with 99% of it.

 

I find ADSB doesnt really give me more information except it is useful to plan / coordinate circuit entry/departure  and circuit vicinity contentions. It's excellent for enhancing proactive steps for that. 

I understand where you are going here,  but for example if you're in the circuit and someone is way down there and hard to see someone is either too low or someone else is too high. If there was a choice between ADSB and a major clean up of circuit flying in Australia making sure people were flying in the same circuit would reduce the risk the most because then you know where to look.

[djpacro]

4 hours ago, IanR said:

I now have ADSB out on my aircraft. Have just purchased a uavionix PING ADSB receiver to display ADSB traffic on OzRunways. Have not tried it yet but should give similar input to the Skyecho at a fraction of the price. 

Same here, new transponder with ADSB-out so fitted a Ping although I could’ve retained the SkyEcho. Of course, I use AvPlan.

it works well.

[pmccarthy]

It is useful for identifying the active runway 10-20 miles inbound when there is traffic but no radio calls.such as Benalla or Tocumwal glider ops. Just need some plane on OzRunways doing circuits and you know.

Edited April 5 by pmccarthy