ADSB - Confusion

[flyingbaz]

I hope some light can be shed on what for me is becoming a more complex topic the more I speak to people. 

Background

In light of the current govt rebate for the purchase of ADSB, it seems there are 3 main criteria:

A. Need a proof of purchase - no issue

B. Need a registered aircraft - understood

C. For fitted (other than the Sky Echo hand held) , need to have the installation / callibration signed off by an avionics LAME. This is the hard part.

 

My Confusion

I reached out to a LAME who insisted my configuration of Kanardia AETOS EFIS which will connect to a Trig TT21 Txpndr with ADSB out will not being certified and will therefor be non compliant. He stated I will need to have the Trig TN70 full compliance WAAS add on to make it certifiable (extra $4,800). Alternatively he suggested Garmin 335 - also with a price tag, and a larger interface on the panel. Even the Sky Echo he says is not compliant. As such he can't / won't sign off on my configuration of the AETOS and Trig combination. The aircraft is home built not fitted with certified avionics, but still good quality and not cheap products.

 

Question

I know people have purchased and received rebate for Sky Echo (which is apparently not certified). Has anyone managed to install a "non certified" configuration and managed to get it signed off, and received the rebate? I'd be keen to get people's input.

 

[turboplanner]

43 minutes ago, flyingbaz said:

I hope some light can be shed on what for me is becoming a more complex topic the more I speak to people. 

Background

In light of the current govt rebate for the purchase of ADSB, it seems there are 3 main criteria:

A. Need a proof of purchase - no issue

B. Need a registered aircraft - understood

C. For fitted (other than the Sky Echo hand held) , need to have the installation / callibration signed off by an avionics LAME. This is the hard part.

 

My Confusion

I reached out to a LAME who insisted my configuration of Kanardia AETOS EFIS which will connect to a Trig TT21 Txpndr with ADSB out will not being certified and will therefor be non compliant. He stated I will need to have the Trig TN70 full compliance WAAS add on to make it certifiable (extra $4,800). Alternatively he suggested Garmin 335 - also with a price tag, and a larger interface on the panel. Even the Sky Echo he says is not compliant. As such he can't / won't sign off on my configuration of the AETOS and Trig combination. The aircraft is home built not fitted with certified avionics, but still good quality and not cheap products.

 

Question

I know people have purchased and received rebate for Sky Echo (which is apparently not certified). Has anyone managed to install a "non certified" configuration and managed to get it signed off, and received the rebate? I'd be keen to get people's input.

 

Some good points there, probably more realistic than what we've been seeing. If it's important to you then you should write to Airservices and get the correct information. Relying on "Managed to get it signed off" has left many people with a recreational aircraft in the shed forever in the past.

[skippydiesel]

I  install/fit my own Trigg ADSB & then had it initialised (commissioned) by a qualified/certified technician.

 

Dont have the knowledge to understand your predicament (mix/match) however I had no difficulty having my system passed.

 

Good luck - hope you get the help you need from an electronics person on this Forum 

 

 

[Flying_higher]

If your ADS-B out transponder meets the requirements within this AC you should be fine to claim the rebate. 
 https://www.casa.gov.au/ads-b-enhancing-situational-awareness

[Neil_S]

Hi FlyingBaz,

 

I also spoke to an avionics guy a while ago about setting up the ADSB OUT on my Trig 21 transponder. He also said I would need a certified GPS source (my Garmin Aera 500 is not certified apparently). I think he mentioned the Garmin 335 too. It would therefore cost thousands, including his labour, to buy and to hook it up.

He said to just get the Skyecho, which I did, and was able to claim the government rebate with no issues at all. Total cost was about $450 (it was a while ago).

 

Cheers,

Neil

[Freizeitpilot]

If you were to purchase a new aircraft from overseas and ADS-B was fitted as an extra cost option, I don’t believe this cost attracts a rebate.

[flyingbaz]

14 hours ago, Flying_higher said:

If your ADS-B out transponder meets the requirements within this AC you should be fine to claim the rebate. 
 https://www.casa.gov.au/ads-b-enhancing-situational-awareness

This is a great document, thanks for the link. It's a complex topic and from what I can see, people are interpreting things in different ways. It looks like I am able to use my original configuration. The document states for Experimental.

"ADS-B OUT equipment installed in these aircraft must meet the ADS-B standards in surveillance requirements and standards applicable to flight rules under which the aircraft is operated. No CASA approval is required for the ADS-B OUT system installation. Owners of these aircraft may elect to install equipment authorised under a TSO, in accordance with the installation instructions provided by the manufacturer. Alternatively, owners of these aircraft may elect to purchase uncertified equipment."

[BirdDog]

Yep!  I had the same issues.

 

I run a couple of Garmin G3X Touch glass panels.  It actually has ADSB out - so I thought, great - I will upgrade to full ADSB in/out and claim a rebate.  Was told though, that because its classed as experimental, and does not have a certified GPS source, 2 things might be an issue - getting installed and signed off by a LAME, and the fact that ATC will not see it anyway!

So I paid for the upgrade myself, and at least I have ADSB in/out.  I have done some research and although all the aircraft around me can see my ADSB data, ATC at say Canberra will only see my Mode C transponder - which is fine - as that is the minimum Canberra want to enter the airspace. 

Same with SkyEcho.  Other airspace users can see it, ATC don't - so my data tells me.

Still a bit silly in my books, but that's apparently the way it is.

[KRviator]

1 hour ago, BirdDog said:

Yep!  I had the same issues.

 

I run a couple of Garmin G3X Touch glass panels.  It actually has ADSB out - so I thought, great - I will upgrade to full ADSB in/out and claim a rebate.  Was told though, that because its classed as experimental, and does not have a certified GPS source, 2 things might be an issue - getting installed and signed off by a LAME, and the fact that ATC will not see it anyway!

So I paid for the upgrade myself, and at least I have ADSB in/out.  I have done some research and although all the aircraft around me can see my ADSB data, ATC at say Canberra will only see my Mode C transponder - which is fine - as that is the minimum Canberra want to enter the airspace. 

Same with SkyEcho.  Other airspace users can see it, ATC don't - so my data tells me.

Still a bit silly in my books, but that's apparently the way it is.

Something doesn't sound right there - My SkyView is visible to both BN & ML CTR and I routinely get Flight Following using ADS-B with the GNSS source being the Dynon SV-GPS-2020. What's your actual position source? For Experimental, you do not need a TSO'd or "Certified" GNSS Position Source - your ADS-B position source only needs to meet the requirements of the TSO, and have a certificate attesting as such. The Dynon GPS-2020 has this - but not the GPS-250. I believe - but am not sure - the Garmin GPS-20A is the same as the SV-GPS-2020, suitable for ADS-B position but I don't how where their certificate of conformance is to be found. Sounds like whoever gave you that advice isn't up to speed with the latest permissions for RAAus/Experimental. Of course, you could install a Dynon GPS-2020 in your G3X system if you're really keen. 😛

EDIT: For those who choose Garmin, the relevant Certificate of Conformance is found in the installation manual, Chapter 15.2. So install a GPS-20A, configure your G3X right, and off ye shall go.
 

Quote

15.2Statement of Compliance (per AC 90-114A CHG1)
The Garmin GPS 20A, while not TSO approved, meets the ADS-B Out position source performance requirements for FAR 91.227 compliance when used in combination with a Mode S ADS-B Out
transponder meeting the requirements of TSO-C166b and installed in accordance with the instructions in this document. Example transponders which may be used in combination with the GPS 20A for FAR 91.227 compliance are the Garmin GTX™ 330ES, GTX 23ES, GTX 35R, GTX 45R, GTX 345/345R, and GTX 335/335R.

If you're the builder of the aircraft (or can maintain it either through RAAus L1 or Instrument 18/22), then you can install the ADS-B equipment and sign off on it for the purposes of the rebate as you're an approved installer. At least, that's how I read it.

And from CAO20.18
 

Quote

9B.12A requirement under Appendix XI, XII, or XIII that an approved equipment configuration for ADS-B transmitting equipment be authorised in accordance with a specific TSO or ETSO does not apply to the ADS-B transmitting equipment carried on certain light sport, experimental and other aircraft provided that:

(a) the equipment configuration that is carried provides the pilot, other aircraft and ATC with the same transponder and surveillance capability as would be provided if the equipment were expressly authorised in accordance with the specific TSO or ETSO; and

(b) the pilot or the operator has a statement of conformance (however described) from the equipment manufacturer stating the particular standard or standards of the TSO or ETSO with which the equipment conforms.

 

Edited April 20 by KRviator

[skippydiesel]

On 05/04/2024 at 8:47 PM, skippydiesel said:

I  install/fit my own Trigg ADSB & then had it initialised (commissioned) by a qualified/certified technician.

 

Dont have the knowledge to understand your predicament (mix/match) however I had no difficulty having my system passed.

 

Good luck - hope you get the help you need from an electronics person on this Forum 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, KRviator said:

If you're the builder of the aircraft (or can maintain it either through RAAus L1 or Instrument 18/22), then you can install the ADS-B equipment and sign off on it for the purposes of the rebate as you're an approved installer. At least, that's how I read it.

And from CAO20.18
 

 

Hi KR - As mentioned earlier - Did my own physical install, applied for unique code BUT had to have certified person do the actual initialising (commissioned).

Initialisation involved electronic gizmos, that also checked out the accuracy of my altitude, air speed, direction measuring equipment.

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, BirdDog said:

Same with SkyEcho.  Other airspace users can see it, ATC don't - so my data tells me.

It'd be strange if this remains the case (that ATC can't see SE2 transmissions).

(And even more strange that we don't have clarity on it by now, one way or the other.)

This was written back in 2021 in Flight Safety Australia in an article called  "VFR and Visible"

 

 

Can ATC ‘see’ my SkyEcho2?

The prime objective of SkyEcho2 is air-to-air traffic awareness – the device is not certified to the performance standards needed for ATC separation services. Nevertheless, CASA envisages the device being used for situational awareness by ATC.

By early this year, the Airservices Australia ATC system had not been modified to display SkyEcho2; however, it is expected that with a new ATC system on the way, SkyEcho2 transmissions will be displayed to controllers, for situational awareness only, using distinctive symbology which will prevent the application of surveillance separation standards to those aircraft. Given the COVID crisis, there is uncertainty about when this capability may be delivered by Airservices Australia.

 

 

VFR and visible _ Flight Safety Australia copy.pdf

Edited April 20 by Garfly

[KRviator]

4 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

 

Hi KR - As mentioned earlier - Did my own physical install, applied for unique code BUT had to have certified person do the actual initialising (commissioned).

Initialisation involved electronic gizmos, that also checked out the accuracy of my altitude, air speed, direction measuring equipment.

Gotcha, but that's more the RAD43 certification though, innit? "certification of successful functional testing of the ADS-B (Out) installation" from the grant form? We can (well, most of us can) install it and configure it per the manual & Hex code, but have to get the final install tested by an AvTech for the purposes of the biennial transponder checks before we can officially turn it on.

[BirdDog]

7 hours ago, Garfly said:

It'd be strange if this remains the case (that ATC can't see SE2 transmissions).

(And even more strange that we don't have clarity on it by now, one way or the other.)

This was written back in 2021 in Flight Safety Australia in an article called  "VFR and Visible"

 

 

Can ATC ‘see’ my SkyEcho2?

The prime objective of SkyEcho2 is air-to-air traffic awareness – the device is not certified to the performance standards needed for ATC separation services. Nevertheless, CASA envisages the device being used for situational awareness by ATC.

By early this year, the Airservices Australia ATC system had not been modified to display SkyEcho2; however, it is expected that with a new ATC system on the way, SkyEcho2 transmissions will be displayed to controllers, for situational awareness only, using distinctive symbology which will prevent the application of surveillance separation standards to those aircraft. Given the COVID crisis, there is uncertainty about when this capability may be delivered by Airservices Australia.

 

 

VFR and visible _ Flight Safety Australia copy.pdf 447.36 kB · 0 downloads

so ATC themselves have told me they will only see the Mode C data and not the ADSB data. 
 

I’ve tested this in the air.  Same for the sky echo. 
 

This also from Garmin. 
 

To enable ADS-B Out with a SIL > 3 you will be required to provide the GTX 32ES with an approved GPS Source. If which the standard G3X is not. 

 

Only passing in want I’ve been told. 

[Garfly]

15 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

so ATC themselves have told me they will only see the Mode C data and not the ADSB data. 
 

I’ve tested this in the air.  Same for the sky echo. 
 

This also from Garmin. 
 

To enable ADS-B Out with a SIL > 3 you will be required to provide the GTX 32ES with an approved GPS Source. If which the standard G3X is not. 

 

Only passing in want I’ve been told. 

Yeah, interesting but puzzling; what ATC (Canberra Approach and/or Tower?) are telling you. Maybe the tech has not trickled down yet or maybe they choose not to deal with any additional "situational awareness" capacity. 

As to the Garmin quote, as far as I understand it, that wouldn't bear on the issue of whether or not ATC have commissioned the gear that lets them "see" EC devices (as foreshadowed in the Flight Safety Australia article [above]).

 

 

 

Edited April 20 by Garfly

[Kyle Communications]

For ADSB out to comply it must have a proper certified GPS source. I bought the Uavionix TailbeaconX. They used to sell a "experimental" version of it but now only sell the TSO'd version. To comply you do need the GNSS certified GPS source. You can use another brand but I also bought the AV-30 from Uavionix which has that certified source inbuilt and fully complys. The AV-30 also does a hell of a lot of other stuff pretty much to the point you dont need a EFIS but any certified source comes at a price. basically the Transponder was about 4k and the AV-30 was about 4k..but with the rebate I got both of them for 4k...Also dont forget this is only ADSB OUT...for IN I will use my SE2..you turn off the transmitter and use the SE2 as your ADSB IN

Or of course you can use another solution like a Raspberry Pi setup or a Stratus or one of the many others as your ADSB IN setup.

 

I build my own aircraft and I just signed off the installation as me myself and I....There was no issue getting the rebate at all. Of course though you need the instruments all tested every 2 years by a licenced person to do so as I am not licenced to do that even though I spent 30 years in the radio/satellite comms industry doing board level repais and tuning and testing. I have never applied to get the necessary paperwork crap to get my licence to sign off on the avionics

 

 

[Garfly]

14 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

For ADSB out to comply it must have a proper certified GPS source.

 

Yeah, I think there are a couple of issues mixed up here, Mark. 'Compliance' as to proper full ADSB-out systems is one thing and, as you say, requires, among other things, a certified GPS source.

 

But the other question is one we've been asking for years: does ATC yet have the ability to 'see' EC devices -  if only as a "situational awareness" tool within their limited range.  That's what the authorities have long been suggesting will happen but I've never heard that it is the case anywhere in the country. (See the article I quoted above, for example)

 

Do you have any more info on that? 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I am told ATC can see the SE2 as several plots have been called by ATC and they dont have mode C on board only SE2. But maybe in their MOP's ATC are not supposed to use it so who knows but ATC were supposed to be going to see them..it really is a software thing that would be easily implemented for ATC

 

 

Mark

[KRviator]

13 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

For ADSB out to comply it must have a proper certified GPS source. I bought the Uavionix TailbeaconX. They used to sell a "experimental" version of it but now only sell the TSO'd version. To comply you do need the GNSS certified GPS source. You can use another brand but I also bought the AV-30 from Uavionix which has that certified source inbuilt and fully complys.

 

No, it doesn't need to be 'certified' or TSO'd for RAAus or Experimental - it just has to meet the performance standards of the TSO and have a certificate saying as such.

Neither the Garmin GPS20A or the Dynon SV-GPS-2020 are certified, TSO'd or otherwise, yet both are completely acceptable GNSS position sources for ADS-B in Australia for LSA & Experimental, and have been for many years.

That being said, you cannot use that (non-TSO'd) GNSS position source for navigation but for ADS-B, it is perfectly acceptable per CAO20.18 and Part 91 MOS 26.66
 

Quote

26.66 Exceptions to (E)TSO or NAA requirements
(1) In this section:
relevant aircraft means any of the following:
(a) a light sport aircraft for which a special certificate of airworthiness has been issued and is in force under regulation 21.186 of CASR;
(b) a light sport aircraft for which an experimental certificate has been issued and is in force under paragraph 21.191 (j) or (k) of CASR;
(c) any other aircraft for which an experimental certificate has been issued and is in force under paragraph 21.191 (g) or (h) of CASR.
(2) A requirement in this Division that an item of equipment, or element of an item of equipment, be authorised in accordance with a particular TSO or ETSO, does not apply to a relevant aircraft in respect of any surveillance equipment if:
(a) the configuration of the surveillance equipment that is fitted or carried provides the pilot, other aircraft and ATS with the same surveillance capability as would be provided if the equipment complied with the particular TSO or ETSO; and
(b) the pilot or the operator has a statement of conformance (however described) from the equipment manufacturer stating the particular standard or standards of the TSO or ETSO with which the equipment conforms.

 

[Kyle Communications]

KR. either way they cost pretty much the same. I went with both being TSO versions...then there was no drama. had my money back in 4 weeks and if I wish I can now go into CTA with that hardware without any issue. You will never be allowed CTA with a SE2. So I just bit the bullet and did it the certified way then there was absolutely no issue. I looked at the financial differences and for me...it was worth the sh@t fight.

[BrendAn]

On 06/04/2024 at 11:47 AM, Freizeitpilot said:

If you were to purchase a new aircraft from overseas and ADS-B was fitted as an extra cost option, I don’t believe this cost attracts a rebate.

if you can afford to import a new aircraft you don't really need the rebate.

[BirdDog]

On 21/04/2024 at 11:41 AM, KRviator said:

No, it doesn't need to be 'certified' or TSO'd for RAAus or Experimental - it just has to meet the performance standards of the TSO and have a certificate saying as such.

Neither the Garmin GPS20A or the Dynon SV-GPS-2020 are certified, TSO'd or otherwise, yet both are completely acceptable GNSS position sources for ADS-B in Australia for LSA & Experimental, and have been for many years.

That being said, you cannot use that (non-TSO'd) GNSS position source for navigation but for ADS-B, it is perfectly acceptable per CAO20.18 and Part 91 MOS 26.66
 

 

 

 

 

Hmm.. Interesting!  Then why is it that ATC can not see my ADBS data at all?  I show up on Flight Radar and Flight Aware, but ATC into Canberra - NADA!

[Kyle Communications]

What ADSB are you using?

 

[KRviator]

49 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

 

 

 

Hmm.. Interesting!  Then why is it that ATC can not see my ADBS data at all?  I show up on Flight Radar and Flight Aware, but ATC into Canberra - NADA!

How have you got it setup in the settings menu? Should be outputting a SIL of 3 (from memory, am away from my -9 for a bit, will check in a couple days). Anything less than that and TAAATS is programmed to automatically reject it on the controller's display as it doesn't have sufficient assurance that the position transmitted is actually the position you're at.

[BirdDog]

1 hour ago, Kyle Communications said:

What ADSB are you using?

 

 

Garmin - Part of the complete G3X Touch Systems.  It is EXPERIMENTAL and so does not put out SIL 3 as they want.

[BirdDog]

28 minutes ago, KRviator said:

How have you got it setup in the settings menu? Should be outputting a SIL of 3 (from memory, am away from my -9 for a bit, will check in a couple days). Anything less than that and TAAATS is programmed to automatically reject it on the controller's display as it doesn't have sufficient assurance that the position transmitted is actually the position you're at.

 

Yep!  It's the Experimental version of the Garmin systems, so it does not put out what they want, and I don't think it is even an option without the certified GPS attached.