Jabiru Gen 4

[Bat6065]

Anyone updated to a Jabiru Gen 4? 

Are there any actual experience with cooling issues, good or bad, now the barrels and heads have increased surface area? 

Trying to decide between LCH with Rotec and a new Gen 4 

[Blueadventures]

Are you going to Parkes I know there a Gen 4 in a 230 going there. He is happy with his as far as I know.

[Kenlsa]

Our club has 4 Gen4 jabs and one Gen3.  The Gen4 run best on mogas and run cool compared to other generations.  Highly recommended.  Stay air cooled and bank the extra useful load and put the money saved to more fuel so you can get out more.  I have worked on all generation engines and the best are Gen 4, particularly in a training environment with up to 8 T/O and landings in an hour, though I have a soft spot for the last version of the Gen1.

 

best not to over think these things.

 

Ken

[Bat6065]

22 minutes ago, Kenlsa said:

Our club has 4 Gen4 jabs and one Gen3.  The Gen4 run best on mogas and run cool compared to other generations.  Highly recommended.  Stay air cooled and bank the extra useful load and put the money saved to more fuel so you can get out more.  I have worked on all generation engines and the best are Gen 4, particularly in a training environment with up to 8 T/O and landings in an hour, though I have a soft spot for the last version of the Gen1.

 

best not to over think these things.

 

Ken

Very true about the overthinking!!!!

 

and thanks… I’m definitely heading in the Gen4 direction now 👍👍

[440032]

I am a little more in the know with the amateur-built scene than most, and I hear nothing on the grapevine at all about Gen 4's. Nothing good. Nothing bad. NOTHING.

I can only assume they are out there humming along quite happily. People only usually pipe up when something goes wrong, they don't go swinging from the trees with excitement when all is operating normally.

LCH? I've never personally seen or know of a set installed on anything, and I've seen a lot of Jabiru engines and own a 2200 myself.

 

[Bat6065]

No news is good news then 

 

at least that’s how I’m calling it 

 

😂

[justinjsinclair]

Having owned both LCH and Gen 4 so I feel there are a few things to point out.

 

Treat everything written on line with absolute suspicion, believe no one and trust no one, including me 🤔, unless it’s written down in a RAA, CASA, ATSB report or on a Jabiru or Rotec letterhead don’t believe it. I find it absolutely criminal that both Jabiru and Rotec are small Aussie companies making awesome products and yet we as Aussies praise the stuff made in Europe (which by the way have just as many issues as everything else) and poo poo the local product. Then we all whinge about no Aussie made cars or products whilst not supporting Aussie products in the supermarket and complain about the price of Rotax stuff 💁.

 

i have never had a bad experience with Jabiru or Rotec, if you write them an email with all the information that they require including part numbers, dimensions, Serial numbers just as you would any engineering parts supply company they will get back to you asap. If you ring on Friday arvo with no information in a bad mood you can hardly expect great service.

 

The Gen 4 is really hard to beat, it’s an awesome engine. It’s currently in production and all the parts are available. I just ordered an annual inspection kit including  four oil filters, plugs, oil hose plus clamps and fire sleeve. All up delivered the next day to Brisbane was under $400.00. Yes I could have hunted around supercheep and saved a few dollars but all of my parts come from the manufacturer with paperwork and are traceable if there is a problem. The parts team at Jabiru are fricken awesome. To get angry at them because you have a 15 year old engine that has not been maintained, installed and run as per the book seems a bit silly, btw I note that heads will soon be available again. Having said that nearly all parts for all the Gen engines are still available or an upgrade is still available. Yes a Gen 4 is now 20k but a Rotax is now nearly double that, a O235 can hit 100k installed and a Chieftain engine can now be 250k. I think it’s exciting that Jabiru are now working on fuel injection, I wouldn’t be surprised that the Gen4 2200 will now be a 2000 hour (no top) 100hp engine stock just with EFI. 
if you can afford it buy a Gen4, install it properly and maintain it properly and it should give you 2000hours of love.

 

The Rotec kit is fricken cool, Paul and Tony are awesome to deal with but you need to remember you are moving into the experimental area. So just like Lotus 7 kit cars, racing skiffs and home built verandas you need to understand how to do stuff. Paul is still developing the kit and there is no doubt that it solves the head heat issues. You can fit the kit for less than the cost of top overhaul but whilst you are there you might as well put new pistons, rings and valves in. It will probably cit you 3-7k all up including paint but you  will have a weapon of an aircraft. Having said that you will now need to be even more fastidious at annual time, hoses, clamps, mounting brackets, fibreglass, pumps, wiring and the rest make it more like a Rotax. I am not sure if Rotec have established a hose replacement time yet but that’s the sort of stuff you need to think about. 5 years might be a good start.

 

A 3300 , EFI, a gearbox with Rotec should be a 200hp engine 😁 yeah baby ❤️

 

i guess it’s just like all these rotax’s running around at 3-4000 hours with no issues, sure there is luck involved but the truth is that some engineer in some dark corner of the office designed a brilliant engine and put a TBO on it, we as owners can ignore that in our private flying worlds but at what cost.

The rumour grapevine says that there have been many Rotax issues lately both with new builds and old engines, are they true or is it online rubbish because my aunt Mildred’s book reading mate heard from the barmaid that a Cessna powered by a Rotax had an engine failure.

 

anyway just my thoughts, 

Justin

SP500, J160 gen4, heaps of other flying machines

Edited April 13 by justinjsinclair
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[onetrack]

Re the pricing of OEM aviation parts and components - you won't find anything cheap at Supercheap, or Bunnings Aerospace, or any of the tool companies, or big parts suppliers any more, either - ever since they set out on the path a couple of years ago, to ramping up prices to meet the 25%-30% ROI corporate expectations for profit levels.

The difference in prices from the original source country (you know, that big Asian supplier to the North of us), and the prices the local rorters ask for these products, is simply breathtaking in the level of markup.

[Methusala]

On 14/04/2024 at 9:21 AM, justinjsinclair said:

we as Aussies praise the stuff made in Europe (which by the way have just as many issues as everything else)

Was in Tumut this weekend. Lying forlornly in the field 300m north of 35's threshold was a Foxbat. It had declared an oil pressure related engine failure. Rotax 9 series engine I would suppose. So, they  don't all run like the veritable Swiss watch. I'm certainly not attempting to bad mouth the pilot who suffered a little physical shaking but otherwise unharmed. Any engine can fail. Don

[kgwilson]

Rotaxes that have 2,3, or 4000 hours on them aren't owned and flown by a private individual. They are operated by flying schools hence the high hours. Most weekend pilots fly 50 hours or less a year. That's 20 years of flying with the same engine to get to 1000 hours.

 

The 2 flying schools in my area have J170s and the engines are replaced at 2000 hours, some after 1000 hours when the top end overhaul is due. Why? It is cheaper to install a new engine of the latest generation than to get the original one overhauled. The time taken for the overhaul also means the aircraft is out of service for that time and cannot be used losing the school money.

 

All that is required to achieve these values is the correct regular maintenance as per the maintenance manual. I have a Gen 3 3300A engine. It was the 4th off the line in 2013 with roller cam followers. I maintain it per the book and at a bit over 400 hours it runs as well as it did when it was new. Leak downs are 78/80 and I don't add oil between changes every 25 hours. I like the simplicity of an air cooled direct drive engine that can run all day at full power if required.

 

That aside the failure rate of 912s in the last year exceeded that of Jab engines. It may have been a oil line, radiator leak or some other minor issue but that is partly due to the 912s complexity with 2 carburettors, lots of plumbing, liquid cooling, a reduction drive and external oil tank.

 

The 912 is a great reliable engine but it is far from perfect and as it, like every other engine is man made it will fail at some point. A Sling landed on the beach not far from me a while ago suffering a catastrophic engine failure. The original 80HP version is considered by many as the best and most reliable. Now with the latest pumping out 160 HP from the same 1.4 litre displacement I'd be a bit cautious. Then there is the price. Wow.

 

 

[facthunter]

 I do as much research as I have spare time for.  For now and to the future there's a lot of uncertainty compared to the past . A few companies may find it hard to stay in the game . .. I'd rate the Continental 0- 200 as the best motor since the 50's in it's class. It was also made by Rolls Royce Under licence Probably by China now  How to improve it? Put the starter ring gear  behind the prop  with a lightweight  starter and have a Belt driven. alternator .Nev

[Thruster88]

I would rate the lycoming O-235 as the best piston aero engine. Only producers 112hp from a platform capable of 210hp (io-390) 2400 hour tbo, could be the highest ever? Powers the C152 and some others.

[facthunter]

It  depends on which Power range you want to work in. The Lycoming is a bit bulkier and  heavier and has the camshaft over the top causing a  few corrosion problems but going to the Higher Power It'd be the Lycomings  mostly  all the way.   Nev

[Bat6065]

Crazy I know but….. what does any of this have to do with anyone using a Jabiru Gen 4 ?

[RFguy]

Gen4 is OK now.

Had a shaky start. (2017 to 2020) 

I'm going to sell my J230, umming and ahhing whether I do a top end overhaul and sell with a late Gen3 (and the last of them)  even has the prop frange dowels.....

or I put a Gen4 in it and flog it with that.....

 

Jabiru have had to change from the Bing carb to some Mikuni copy. so far so good, wonder how their jetting is going, that might take time to figure out.

 

 

 

 

[Blueadventures]

The 230 should have appreciated in value; might be worth ordering a new Gen 4; there would be a lead in build time and sell the gen 3 as is or upgraded.  Should be good value for you whichever way you go.  The wait time for a new Gen 4 might confirm the carb matter for you. 

[Freizeitpilot]

I note a comment in Australian Flying that a Jabiru Gen 5 engine was on display at Parkes. Any visitors to Parkes able to offer any commentary ?

[Bat6065]

I know there’s news of an EFI system from Jabiru themselves … but can’t find anything on a Gen 5

[sfGnome]

There wasn’t, to the best of my knowledge, a Gen 5 on display, but the new boss did wave around a cylinder head with some extra holes while talking about the fuel injection that they’re developing. Interestingly, they’re going to keep the carbies as a backup. Run on injection normally, and fall back to the carbies if the injection fails. I don’t know how that works, but it sounds like a good idea (assuming the carbies are still functional after 1000 hours of idleness). 

[Blueadventures]

14 minutes ago, sfGnome said:

There wasn’t, to the best of my knowledge, a Gen 5 on display, but the new boss did wave around a cylinder head with some extra holes while talking about the fuel injection that they’re developing. Interestingly, they’re going to keep the carbies as a backup. Run on injection normally, and fall back to the carbies if the injection fails. I don’t know how that works, but it sounds like a good idea (assuming the carbies are still functional after 1000 hours of idleness). 

That is all ready a proven method on an after market retro fit for Rotax 912's for many years.  Its a good method I reckon. always good to have backup systems where possible.

Edited April 16 by Blueadventures

[jackc]

1 hour ago, sfGnome said:

There wasn’t, to the best of my knowledge, a Gen 5 on display, but the new boss did wave around a cylinder head with some extra holes while talking about the fuel injection that they’re developing. Interestingly, they’re going to keep the carbies as a backup. Run on injection normally, and fall back to the carbies if the injection fails. I don’t know how that works, but it sounds like a good idea (assuming the carbies are still functional after 1000 hours of idleness). 

I questioned the new injection system when at the factory several months ago.  Was told it was a Jabiru design system using recognised industry design types.  It is not a third party rebadge job. Or a collection of bits and pieces from other makers. I think at that time they were still working on the fallback design setup, from memory 

[pmccarthy]

I was impressed by the gen 4 in the Parkes display. Hadn’t seen one before.

[skippydiesel]

Am I the only pilot who thinks that TBO claims are BS due to the lack of a common measurement/criteria across the aircraft ICE engine industry.

If I am correct, those poor deluded pilots, who use this marketing tool, to compare longevity of service, between engine manufacturers, are fooling themselves.

 

[turboplanner]

56 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Am I the only pilot who thinks that TBO claims are BS due to the lack of a common measurement/criteria across the aircraft ICE engine industry.

If I am correct, those poor deluded pilots, who use this marketing tool, to compare longevity of service, between engine manufacturers, are fooling themselves.

 

No, you're correct. Just about every engine has its own lifecycle.

Some, designed for linehaul over the road multi trailer work might have an industry expectation of 1.4 million km, but I've seen new model series with problems only achieving 650, 000 in their hundreds and other new modesl series coming off the line and achieving 2 million km.

 

Going down to smaller diesel engines I've seen two different diesel engines going into the same application with one achieving a consistent 60,000 - 80,000 life cycle under the load and a competitor engine achievingf a consistent 250,000 and in later versions getting out to 800,000. km.

 

Nothing beats costing each vehicle (engine) separately and totalling the invoices to bring you down to earth.

 

[RFguy]

The thing is, the Jabiru top end overhaul, is still 1000 hours, isn't it ? which leads to a cost per hour of about 1.5x the rotax, assuming nothing in the rotax breaks.....

The Jab engines still face a sizable problem on AVGAS.

-- AVGAS running ----They don't run hot enough to evap/ gas the lead compounds, so this cakes-up the crown, rings, chamber, guides. and leads to a TEO/TBO of around 400 hours best. This is well known. There is no getting away from this, apart from using Decalin runup with seems to reduce/ eliminate this problem, but not recognized by Jabiru (but is by rotax).

- solution - run ULP95/98. problem solved. Don't run ULP more than a couple of months exposed to air.

 

Lesser evils

 I'm not sure they've completely got on top of the rather inelegant oil pressure control. There's many documented problems. It's OK, just...... and I would have liked to see a heavier thru bolt, since the margin between [ sufficient preload AND  the material yield  AND  tension errors due to torque application on unknown lube threads } 

 

They've gone to much high temperature rated valves, which is good. and about 3x the price per valve, as expected.

and I  they've gone to a more solid, non split skirt/crown piston. Gen4s broke alot of pistons before they got that part of it stable.....

 

Head recession should be a thing of the past. the bolted head , like everyone else, should solve that. In the past, head recession (due to less than ideal choice of aluminium)  led to valves hanging open and loss of valves....

 

Nothing economical is perfect.

 

-glen