Jabiru Gen 4

[justinjsinclair]

40 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Sorry about the spelling fopa.

 

What has your question "ever owned an aeroplane" got to do with the cost of owning one?

 

So how come you didn't address any of my observations?

That’s ok,  Skippy or what ever your real name is.
Just like the spelling there is a valid reason for my questions/s
If you can’t get a name spelt correctly and want to sprout anti Jabiru and pro Rotax sentiment that’s fine and it’s your right, just as it’s my right to point out that your (just like mine)  opinions need to be treated with caution.

i asked you on what basis and education you have to post on the subject.
Have you built, maintained, flown either of these types. Simple question really ?

So many look to these forums to guide them on potential purchases of all RAA style aircraft and that we should all be careful sprouting rubbish that is ill informed and frankly lazy.

We need to be more positive, if someone wants to buy a Drifter, Metroliner or Primary glider we should encourage them and if we are going to poo poo their  idea then we need to make sure we are not hiding behind some pseudonym, drinking almond soy lattes from our tesla on our way to another Microsoft flight sim session where we think a FW190 is easy to fly. (BTW not accusing you of fitting that mould]
I know the costs of both Rotax and Jabiru (actually you can add Lycoming, Continental, P&W, Garrett, CFM and RR to that as well) and think both of them are fine engine’s and both have a place in our world.

You are asking me to put in effort to answer questions that you don’t appear to want to put in the effort yourself to answer. If you want me to answer them I am happy to but you will need to pay, happy to invoice you incl GST.
I have no vested interest in Jabiru other than they are a fine company that brings dollars into our country that we all need to pay for our Eectric vehicles, city slickers coffee and pensions.

Jabiru Australia tare wonderfully passionate people, they are awesome to deal with and absolutely 100% reliable from a professional point of view. They own their product and employ many Australians.
Why we as Aussie’s feel the need to tear them down is quite beyond me. I am so sick of the “Jabiru in the paddock joke” perhaps you might like to see where much of the European technology comes from, might be a nice history lesson for you.

have a great week -Justin 

 

Edited April 22 by justinjsinclair

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

You are an angry kangaroo lately.

When you insult someone at least own it.

I have no idea what you are referring to - please elaborate.

[BrendAn]

Just now, skippydiesel said:

I have no idea what you are referring to - please elaborate.

You have been having a go at a few people lately. Never noticed it before.  

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, justinjsinclair said:

That’s ok,  Skippy or what ever your real name is. Tad aggressive 😎
Just like the spelling there is a valid reason for my questions/s
If you can’t get a name spelt correctly and want to sprout anti Jabiru and pro Rotax sentiment that’s fine and it’s your right, just as it’s my right to point out that your (just like mine)  opinions need to be treated with caution. Agreed

i asked you on what basis and education you have to post on the subject. Could not find this question 
Have you built, maintained, flown either of these types. Simple question really ? Never built from scratch. Have done a complete in/out refurb on a composite/fabric and finished off  (intensive 24 months) an all metal homebuilt. I am the sole maintainer.

So many look to these forums to guide them on potential purchases of all RAA style aircraft and that we should all be careful sprouting rubbish that is ill informed and frankly lazy. Is this a generalised comment or are you aiming at me?

We need to be more positive, if someone wants to buy a Drifter, Metroliner or Primary glider we should encourage them and if we are going to poo poo their  idea then we need to make sure we are not hiding behind some pseudonym, drinking almond soy lattes from our tesla on our way to another Microsoft flight sim session where we think a FW190 is easy to fly. (BTW not accusing you of fitting that mould] I agree with having a posative attitude to life in general however when it comes to the purchase of a machine, I advocate for critical analysis (what you seem to infer as negativity) - so many are purchased on the basis of familiarity/brand loyalty/marketing claims and little else.
I know the costs of both Rotax and Jabiru (actually you can add Lycoming, Continental, P&W, Garrett, CFM and RR to that as well) and think both of them are fine engine’s and both have a place in our world. Cost? If we are being absolutely logical, this is made up of Pre Purchase (investigation), Acquisition, Running, Repairs, Insurance, Residue (sale of old) and if being really strict Depreciation (aged brain probably missed one or two). Without a shred of evidence I suggest that Rotax (compared with other similar Hp) will come out as least cost overall.

You are asking me to put in effort to answer questions that you don’t appear to want to put in the effort yourself to answer. If you want me to answer them I am happy to but you will need to pay, happy to invoice you incl GST. Actually not asking you to do anything other than acknowledge that you may have missed a few points in the Jab V Rotax never ending debate
I have no vested interest in Jabiru other than they are a fine company that brings dollars into our country that we all need to pay for our Eectric vehicles, city slickers coffee and pensions. I confess, on a regular basis, to having a love affair with my Rotax 912ULS.🥰

Jabiru Australia tare wonderfully passionate people, they are awesome to deal with and absolutely 100% reliable from a professional point of view. They own their product and employ many Australians. Passion is but a necessary ingredient in the development of any product and its great to hear of a provider receiving such a glowing akolade.
Why we as Aussie’s feel the need to tear them down is quite beyond me. I am so sick of the “Jabiru in the paddock joke” perhaps you might like to see where much of the European technology comes from, might be a nice history lesson for you.

Maaate! Jab make a fine airframe, no question. Personally I would like a little more "feel" in the controls and a lower stall but otherwise hard to fault. I don't need to tell you they have had their engine problems - I hope the Gen 4 will resolve all of them BUT your list of 1000 hr interventions, does not exactly inspire the confidence I would hope for.

have a great week -Justin Thanks and to you too🙂

 

 

[Methusala]

Faux pas (not fopa) gaffe, blunder, indiscretion,impropriety etc. I.E. a mistake which really demands an apology, Similar to addressing me as Donna!!

Edited April 23 by Methusala
Spelling

[skippydiesel]

6 hours ago, BrendAn said:

You have been having a go at a few people lately. Never noticed it before.  

I have no idea what you are referring to - please elaborate.

 

How is this" having a go"????

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Methusala said:

Faux pas (not fopa) gaffe, blunder, indiscretion,impropriety etc. I.E. a mistake which really demands an apology, Similar to addressing me as Donna!!

Thanks for the spelling lesson.

 

I have made my apology.

[skippydiesel]

I note that my questions/observations have neither been answered or challenged.

It seem a little unbalanced that I can be taken to task over a spelling mistake but when I ask some searching questions/observations regarding statements made, I am somehow "having a go at a few people lately"😈

[turboplanner]

A lot of puppets in the air this time of year.

[RFguy]

21 hours ago, justinjsinclair said:

Hey Skippy, the name is Justin. 
just out of interest have you ever owned an aeroplane ? 
Justin

 

 

Justin if you ever decide to get a gender reassignment (I think that's the modern term) , you'll very easily be able to go with "Justine".

[facthunter]

Mona would be more appropriate for a few.  Nev

[Blueadventures]

4 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Mona would be more appropriate for a few.  Nev

Maybe 'Slippy Avgas' for one.  Prepping for incoming now🎯

[kgwilson]

SD you are obviously a Rotax evangelist and that is your right but when I commented in another thread that I liked the simplicity of the Jabiru engine compared to the complexity of the Rotax 9 series you disputed this. I mentioned that the failure rate of Rotax engines is actually higher than for Jabiru engines in Australia in 2023 plus a catastrophic failure in a Sling locally. I thought that would be like a red rag to a bull but no not a peep. I don't care that there are Rotax engines with 2. 3, 4 ,000 hours on them. Plenty of jab engines make the 2000 hour TBO as well. None of these I would guess are owned by private pilots unless they were purchased from a flying school.

 

The Jab engines restrictions imposed by CASA back in 2014 was pushed by some disgruntled FTF owners who ended up as CASA employees and the numbers originally quoted were way over the top but it led to some pretty nasty comments on this and other sites back in 2014. Nowhere else in the world had any issue with Jab engines at the time.  Tall poppy syndrome alive and well again. Jabiru is easily the most successful aircraft and engine manufacturer Australia has produced. We should be promoting local industry and innovation not denigrating it. Well there are over 2,000 Jabirus flying around the world, half of them in Australia and they are exported to over 30 countries with over 7,000 engines having been produced and installed in all sorts of aircraft and even drones.

 

It costs me about $45.00 to do an oil and filter change every 25 hours, about twice a year. How may private owners fly 100 hours a year? Most will still need an oil change annually anyway. How many purchased by private owners are going to make TBO given the low annual hours. Most will be out of time well before they reach TBO.

 

Your cost comparisons are irrelevant. All the plumbing has to be replaced at 5 years. The jab engine only has the oil cooler hoses.

Edited April 23 by kgwilson

[justinjsinclair]

Hey KG, what an awesome post. 
In fact the Jab is nearly 50% cheaper 2200 vs low hp 912 if you add up all the costs in a mature way. SD doesn’t want to put the effort into obtaining the facts but that’s his or her choice.  
Don’t get me wrong, the Rotax is a wonderful bit of kit but now that we are up to $350 hr for a RAA aeroplane dual because the 100’/annual can be $5-7000.00 at LAME rates, I kind of feel a fleet of J160’s is still a great choice for a flying school, particularly if you have a L2 that can maintain the Jabs exactly as per the Jabiru Work pack.

Given that Jabiru is so much cheaper inguess in that case we can probably accept a bit of bracket creep as Jabiru costs increase 😢. 
SD banging on about the top is also a odd thing given that nearly all air cooled engines need work at some stage once they go under that 75 hours per year, having said that the Gen 4 has nikasil bores and the head issues are gone I am betting that the Top overhaul requirement will move as well.

as I said I don’t have a vested interest in Jab other than owning one and maintaining a couple, if anyone wants to pm or call me for further info fee free.

Justin “who identifies as him” 😅

[jackc]

Support is everything for me, a Rolls Royce is useless with poor support.

Rotax have great stuff, but their newer technology can take a hike for this old Dinosaur and Jabiru are a great team, the welcoming I got at their factory was enough for me, ask any question…..got answers, no secret squirrels there. 
AND they are 400km from me, drop in anytime they said. 

[skippydiesel]

9 hours ago, kgwilson said:

SD you are obviously a Rotax evangelist  Bit overstated. I certainly like my Rotax 9. Had great service from the last and hope to have the same from my new one. and that is your right but when I commented in another thread that I liked the simplicity of the Jabiru engine compared to the complexity of the Rotax 9 series you disputed this. I agree (as always) the Jab is a "simpler" engine but "complex" ?? As a person pretty much raised on small capacity high revving automotive engines, I can't say I agree - probably a perspective/semantic thing.  Complexity for me equates with difficulty in understanding /servicing /maintaining, non of which seem to apply. mentioned that the failure rate of Rotax engines is actually higher News to me. Do you have figures and analysis to back this statement? than for Jabiru engines in Australia in 2023 plus a catastrophic failure in a Sling locally. One off incidents do not indicate a trend. All mechanical devices will fail, the question is how long will a type stay in service ie maintain reliability over time. I have no doubt that Jabs have an will probably continue to improve - then the question is  what is the most cost effective engine (within a hp range)  I thought that would be like a red rag to a bull but no not a peep. I don't care that there are Rotax engines with 2. 3, 4 ,000 hours on them. You should, because length in service, without significant life extending intervention, will impact on the cost per hour to run the engine.Plenty of jab engines make the 2000 hour TBO as well. I note, with a wry smile, that you immediately have the Jab at a lower TBO None of these I would guess are owned by private pilots unless they were purchased from a flying school.

 

The Jab engines restrictions imposed by CASA back in 2014 was pushed by some disgruntled FTF owners who ended up as CASA employees and the numbers originally quoted were way over the top but it led to some pretty nasty comments on this and other sites back in 2014. Nowhere else in the world had any issue with Jab engines at the time.  This seems to be a very unlikly assertion. Tall poppy syndrome alive and well again. Jabiru is easily the most successful aircraft and engine manufacturer Australia has produced. We should be promoting local industry and innovation not deni grating it. What would you suggest? - hide our heads in the sand? in the name of brand and national loyalty? Well there are over 2,000 Jabirus flying around the world, "More than 50,000 engines of the Rotax 912 / 914 series were sold since 1989, resulting in more than 45 million" flight hours" of the fleet half of them in Australia and they are exported to over 30 countries with over 7,000 engines having been produced and installed in all sorts of aircraft and even drones. Yes they are an Australian success story and I so acknowledge however initial purchase cost is a big factor in this, as is the low flight hours/year of many recreational pilots. The low hours means that a 1000 hr overhaul may not happen in the time of the original purchaser (ie of little/no consequence) and may also mean that many are predominantly used in local flying ie concerns about reliability, as part of the purchase decision, are reduced. So if you want to argue that Jab meet a need, I would agree.

 

It costs me about $45.00 to do an oil and filter change every 25 hours, about twice a year. The cost per oil change (Jab/Rotax) is likely to be in the same ballpark - the Jab just has to incur the cost X 4 often. How may private owners fly 100 hours a year?  I agree - see below. Most will still need an oil change annually anyway. How many purchased by private owners are going to make TBO given the low annual hours. Most will be out of time well before they reach TBO. As I said above - if you want to argue that the majority of Jabs will only fly a few hours a year, thats fine and whatever additional costs there may be, then pales into insignificance.

 

Your cost comparisons are irrelevant. All the plumbing has to be replaced at 5 years. The jab engine only has the oil cooler hoses. True! (assuming the water cooled heads conversion has not been done😎) In my case I fly 19/experimental, which means I can minimise my costs by purchasing automotive hoses that equal or better Rotax  specifications . I still have to purchase Rotax carburettor rubbers, so about  x2 the cost of a Jab carb rubber replacement.

 

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, justinjsinclair said:

Hey KG, what an awesome post. 
In fact the Jab is nearly 50% cheaper 2200 vs low hp 912 if you add up all the costs in a mature way. SD doesn’t want to put the effort into obtaining the facts but that’s his or her choice.  
Don’t get me wrong, the Rotax is a wonderful bit of kit but now that we are up to $350 hr for a RAA aeroplane dual because the 100’/annual can be $5-7000.00 at LAME rates, I kind of feel a fleet of J160’s is still a great choice for a flying school, particularly if you have a L2 that can maintain the Jabs exactly as per the Jabiru Work pack.

Given that Jabiru is so much cheaper inguess in that case we can probably accept a bit of bracket creep as Jabiru costs increase 😢. 
SD banging on about the top is also a odd thing given that nearly all air cooled engines need work at some stage once they go under that 75 hours per year, having said that the Gen 4 has nikasil bores and the head issues are gone I am betting that the Top overhaul requirement will move as well.

as I said I don’t have a vested interest in Jab other than owning one and maintaining a couple, if anyone wants to pm or call me for further info fee free.

Justin “who identifies as him” 😅

J160 problem for flying schools is weight.

[Deano747]

Don't know where you are getting your LAME from, I have been quoted $2.5 to $3 thousand pa for an LSA with 912is with constant speed prop.

[justinjsinclair]

24 minutes ago, Deano747 said:

Don't know where you are getting your LAME from, I have been quoted $2.5 to $3 thousand pa for an LSA with 912is with constant speed prop.

Hi Deano, your quote is about correct, perhaps even a little dear. The 5-7k is for a Rotax turbo working hard at about 100hours a month. If the wings have to come off, EFIS ADSB cert, tyres, repairs and paint work the bill will be higher at the annual time. I wasn’t really having a go at LAME’s but just pointing out that RAA is starting to get close to GA rates at some of the schools. That’s not a reflection on anyone just a fact of life. That why I think the regional RAA school with a hardy composition airframe jabiru or rotax powered will do well. Having said that C150 annual is getting up there as well. Even a glider annual inspection starts at $1400.00 and it doesn’t have a donk. Justin 

[kgwilson]

A local Mooney owner just got a bill for 18k for his annual. Apparently a number of ADs from years ago had not been done.

[justinjsinclair]

5 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

A local Mooney owner just got a bill for 18k for his annual. Apparently a number of ADs from years ago had not been done.

Yep, a new engine in a C152 just went 100k, and factory new one is 120k 😰

god knows what a GTSIO 421 or 404 is worth now ?.?

makes a Gen4 at 20k or 30k and overhaul costs less than 10 k cheap.

maybe ir time to revisit the  twin Jabiru for IFR training too 

[skippydiesel]

10 hours ago, justinjsinclair said:

Hey KG, what an awesome post. 
In fact the Jab is nearly 50% cheaper 2200 vs low hp 912 if you add up all the costs in a mature way. SD doesn’t want to put the effort into obtaining the facts but that’s his or her choice.  
Don’t get me wrong, the Rotax is a wonderful bit of kit but now that we are up to $350 hr for a RAA aeroplane dual because the 100’/annual can be $5-7000.00 at LAME rates, I kind of feel a fleet of J160’s is still a great choice for a flying school, particularly if you have a L2 that can maintain the Jabs exactly as per the Jabiru Work pack.

Given that Jabiru is so much cheaper inguess in that case we can probably accept a bit of bracket creep as Jabiru costs increase 😢. 
SD banging on about the top is also a odd thing given that nearly all air cooled engines need work at some stage once they go under that 75 hours per year, having said that the Gen 4 has nikasil bores and the head issues are gone I am betting that the Top overhaul requirement will move as well.

as I said I don’t have a vested interest in Jab other than owning one and maintaining a couple, if anyone wants to pm or call me for further info fee free.

Justin “who identifies as him” 😅

Faith is a wonderful thing. Those that have it, are often blind to any other reality and so happy in their world. 😈

[jackc]

Well Skippy, you would not go well in the Military 🤢

[facthunter]

Skip is it JUST POSSIBLE your last post applies to you?. You are very scathing/dismissive of many other opinions, Nev

[Blueadventures]

8 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Skip is it JUST POSSIBLE your last post applies to you?. You are very scathing/dismissive of many other opinions, Nev

Exact same thought, absolutely agree.