Goulburn Airport for sale

[10.5]

39 minutes ago, Ian said:

What is the Goulburn council  court case?

It relates to the asbestos laden aftermath of the four, or was it five “accidental” fires which occurred at the heritage listed St. John’s orphanage.  These “accidental”  fires left an unsafe, toppling charred ruin which resulted in asbestos dust  being blown over the neighbouring properties for years, until council issued a demolition order which was ignored until legal proceedings were commenced. Check out the Wikipedia page on St John’s orphanage for more background.  

[Ian]

Williamsdale looks like it now has solar farm infrastructure surrounding it.

Would that impact the utility of this site or does a new site need to be located.

One thing that might go in favour of the site it that it has a different state on 3 sides. No much in the way of voter backlash.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/QwHZSDndVofHEAMU6

[Methusala]

Very wealthy nimbys say...over my corpse!

[Ian]

15 hours ago, Methusala said:

Very wealthy nimbys say...over my corpse!

But that's what I was saying. It's already an industrial power generation site.

It's in the corner of the ACT.

To the east is NSW who are in a totally different electorate.

To the south is NSW.

So the nimbys shouldn't have anyone with decision making powers to complain to.

 

I had a browse through the website and it looks like it progressed a fair way before going off the rails. Someone spent a lot of time trying to make this work, but it might be marginally healthier than a Norwegian blue.

 

Edited April 28 by Ian

[turboplanner]

3 minutes ago, Ian said:

But that's what I was saying. It's already an industrial power generation site.

It's in the corner of the ACT.

To the east is NSW who are in a totally different electorate.

To the south is NSW.

So the nimbys shouldn't have anyone with decision making powers to complain to.

 

I had a browse through the website and it looks like it progressed a fair way before going off the rails. Someone spent a lot of time trying to make this work, but it might be marginally healthier than a Norwegian blue.

 

Development Applications (DA), like their equivalents in every other State and Territory are processed and approved or rejected by Local Government i.e. the local Council.

 

Where someone is not happy with the Council decision on the property, they have the right to take the matter to the State Tribunal. At the Tribunal they can only raise matters which contravene the Planning Scheme, or don't fit the description - for example a Church 90 metres tall designed for 600 people has a scale too great for a green belt area.

 

Where the State is concerned about a completely inappropriate development, the Minister for Planning can "Call In" the DA before the Tribunal Hearing starts, and rule it out or in following a process which in some cases includes setting up a Planning Panel to hear the matter and report back to the Minister, who makes the final decision.

 

Based on that, the location of this site is unilkely to somehow be influenced by either the NSW Government or ACT Government or Federal Government.

 

No one has mentioned a DA in relation to Williamsdale, so maybe someone has the bull by the horns, which often happens.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The State or Territory sets its broad Planning Scheme; how they want the State/Territory to look, with all the parts fitting together, and the Commonwealth Government doesn't step into matters of each Sovereign State.

 

 

[Garfly]

That Williamsdale proposal was devised and defeated over a decade ago. 

 

It very much involved the ACT Government.

 

It was a very bitter experience for the aviation enthusiasts who worked up the proposal very professionally only to be tripped at the last hurdle.

 

Posting this link again - a detailed telling of the story from their POV

 

Home | Canberra's Second Airport

WWW.CANBERRASECONDAIRPORT.COM

 

 

 

Edited April 29 by Garfly

[skippydiesel]

How unusual - corruption within the Public Service 😈

 

What was the name of the head honcho, who was recently "retired" - playing both sides of politics for his own benefit. Sow him on the goggle box the other day - not one bit repentant.

 

Way to few public servants (including local council) are held to account for their misdeeds.

[jackc]

1 minute ago, skippydiesel said:

How unusual - corruption within the Public Service 😈

 

What was the name of the head honcho, who was recently "retired" - playing both sides of politics for his own benefit. Sow him on the goggle box the other day - not one bit repentant.

 

Way to few public servants (including local council) are held to account for their misdeeds.

I feel the very worst of  Schadenfreude for people like this……🤢

[Ian]

This is ACT Government. There is no local Government in the ACT, just the state/territory Government which means there is a single PoV across all areas.

It is made up of a combination of Labor and the Greens coalition.

 

The person in question was Michael Pezzullo head of the Federal Government Department of Home Affairs which is a very different beast. This is the entity responsible for your ASIC.

 

 

[Ian]

1 hour ago, Garfly said:

That Williamsdale proposal was devised and defeated over a decade ago. 

 

It very much involved the ACT Government.

 

It was a very bitter experience for the aviation enthusiasts who worked up the proposal very professionally only to be tripped at the last hurdle.

 

Posting this link again - a detailed telling of the story from their POV

 

Home | Canberra's Second Airport

WWW.CANBERRASECONDAIRPORT.COM

 

 

 

Are any of these people still around, one thing that I have learnt from Government is that nothing happens quickly. Tying it around some Governments head like a bag of dead fish is often the best approach.

I'd very much be interested on how much the ACT Government has spent with Terry Snow to house their Aviation fire fighting infrastructure there.

This probably would have paid for the Airstrip 10x over.

[turboplanner]

I've read the above linked documents.

I don't believe there was anything there that would normally be used to get an airport going.

It was a case of talking to the wrong people and not understanding the correct process.

The people they contacted should have been more forthright and it wouldn't have extended the way it did.

 

However, the main issue here is Goulburn Airport.

[Garfly]

7 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I've read the above linked documents.

I don't believe there was anything there that would normally be used to get an airport going.

It was a case of talking to the wrong people and not understanding the correct process.

The people they contacted should have been more forthright and it wouldn't have extended the way it did.

 

However, the main issue here is Goulburn Airport.

To me they did all they could have done.  They were very unlucky to have that cabal of public servants throw a spanner in their works at the last hurdle. 

 

In fact, the 'main issue' of this thread extends to the region.

 

From the Original Post

On 14/04/2024 at 10:57 AM, Ian said:

  ... // Any thoughts about where to hangar aircraft in the region would be welcome. I'm still amazed that the national capital only has a single airport within about 100km.

 

 

[turboplanner]

5 minutes ago, Garfly said:

To me they did all they could have done.  They were very unlucky to have that cabal of public servants throw a spanner in their works at the last hurdle. 

In fact, the 'main issue' of this thread extends to the region.

From the Original Post

Let's put it this way; if you want to post a letter, you don't go to the pub.

There was no last hurdle because there was no horse race.

[Garfly]

Oh, thank you.  When you put it that way, even I can understand it.

[Thruster88]

This is the best vid I have seen this year. It will be interesting to see how this young self made guy can develop his latest acquisition. Something like this near Canberra with 200 hangars would be nice.

 

 

[Ian]

On 29/04/2024 at 7:29 PM, turboplanner said:

Let's put it this way; if you want to post a letter, you don't go to the pub.

There was no last hurdle because there was no horse race.

I might be a bit dim but I don't really understand this. You might have to spell is out.

I'm also not naive, having worked in and around Government for a few decades and now own a business which primarily deals with Government. 

 

[Ian]

On 29/04/2024 at 11:52 AM, turboplanner said:

I've read the above linked documents.

I don't believe there was anything there that would normally be used to get an airport going.

It was a case of talking to the wrong people and not understanding the correct process.

The people they contacted should have been more forthright and it wouldn't have extended the way it did.

 

However, the main issue here is Goulburn Airport.

Actually the main issue is the inability for a relatively affluent slice of Australia's population to access an airport. Goulburn being about an hour away is the closest facility.

Given that aviation policy is formulated in an area without access to General Aviation facilities it seems that GA in Australia is pretty much doomed.

MPs only have the choice of flying in the RPT. Imagine the increase in traction for GA if your local member used GA resources to commute to Canberra and back.

 

Does anyone want to give their local member a lift?

 

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, Ian said:

I might be a bit dim but I don't really understand this. You might have to spell is out.

I'm also not naive, having worked in and around Government for a few decades and now own a business which primarily deals with Government. 

 

Then, have you not heard of the ACT Government's Environment, Planning and Sustainable Development Directorate?

 

Whether you want to build a house, factory or Airfield the primary decider on whether it can be done on a property you select will be Planning status.

 

Step 1 is to select a suitable property you think would be ideally located, with suitable weather conditions and meet the technical requirements for an ALA etc.

 

Step 2 is to go on the EPSDD site punch in the property address, and get a property report and map of the property.

This will show the Zoning of the property.

 

Step 3 is to read through the Uses for that Zone.

They may be split into three groups;

1. Permitted Uses without a planning Permit. This may include "farming", something like a tool shed on a farm with a size not more that 10 sqare metres

 

2. Permitted Uses requiring a Plannning Permit.

    This would be where you start looking for "Airfield"

      

3. Prohibited Uses

    These usually include Motor Racing Tracks, and may include Airfields, making a decision on the property easy; go to the next property.

 

If you find a property which allows a Use of Airfield, you then provide a Development Application (DA)  to the Local Government Authority for approval.

 

Anyone can submit a DA, however for an airfield I would recommend hiring a qualified Planning Consultant. These people have done 5 years Planning study at a University and know their way around the very complicated system.

 

You particularly don't need a politician or public servant, or need to know someone.

 

As you can see from this process it's relatively easy for someone to identify land suitable for an airfield, buy it and, where it meets the Planning Scheme for that area, get approval to build one with private hangars etc. obtaining Planning approval for these items where specified.

 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, Ian said:

Actually the main issue is the inability for a relatively affluent slice of Australia's population to access an airport. Goulburn being about an hour away is the closest facility.

The fact that the affluent haven't migrated to Goulburn is of note.

7 hours ago, Ian said:

Given that aviation policy is formulated in an area without access to General Aviation facilities it seems that GA in Australia is pretty much doomed.

If you are making policy for General Aviation you will either be working (as in regularly visiting) or doing the same thing digitally at every GA site in Australia. There was a time where I was doing a National job and was on an aircraft somewhere, often twice a week. Digital allowed me to do that from a desk.

Perhaps the reason our coastal city GA airports have such good aircraft movements is that policy is taking account of the newer types and categories of GA flights and training; for example at Moorabbing now if you want to get a PPL you can book accommodation on campus and do the lot without leaving the airport.

7 hours ago, Ian said:

MPs only have the choice of flying in the RPT. Imagine the increase in traction for GA if your local member used GA resources to commute to Canberra and back.

 

Does anyone want to give their local member a lift?

 

Based on the last Google Earth photo, at the Canberra Airport on grass I counted 32 single engine GA, on the bitumen 2 SE and 9 twins, and there would be others in hangars, but a low number of GA. with room for plenty more.

 

I found a projection for Canberra Airport to be at 153,000 aircraft movements in 2023/24, against Melbourne Airport's 217,000.

 

If you want to meet a potential market requirement as you appear to be doing, guesswork isn't enough; you have to do the hard yards and go out and talk to the market; they'll give you the whys and why nots on their travel arrangements.

 

As for giving your local member a lift, if he isn't already limited by policy to only flying in twin aircraft, don't forget to point to the conditions plaque, and don't forget to tell him what singe engine VFR is really like on a yearly basis. 

I finally gave up trying to do business flying VFR after I was grounded waiting for weather to clear for three days; that cost me orders worth a lot more than the cost of RPT and rental cars.

 

[RFguy]

Canberra airport, 4k/year for parking and all you can eat aircraft movements is good value for money I think.  A hangar will cost ya another 10k.

The problem is that without a hangar, I suspect minor  regular (pilot) maintenance doesn't get done when it sits in the middle of the grass a few hundred meters from the gate .  I consider that if I moved the piper to Cbr, then I'd still need a hangar somewhere to pop into do upkeep maintenance between annuals and 100 hourlys.  

If the Canberra aeroclub had a hangar space  for members to do general upkeep, I'd probably join. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ian]

4k might be reasonable if hangars were available. I haven't seen any become available for decades. This is the reason so many planes are parked on the grass. There are virtually zero GA businesses left at the airport.

 

If a hangar was available for $10000 per year plus another $4000 per year you're looking at about $270/week which is a bit of a joke for GA.

 

Canberra airport has been treated as a real estate asset, and it has monopoly power.

It is exempt from the majority of ACT Government's planning allowing the rapid development of non-aviation infrastructure.

It is too late to fix this mess, however a secondary airport would at least provide some competition.

5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

The fact that the affluent haven't migrated to Goulburn is of note.

Not really, it's simply too far away. Canberra is the centre of economic activity with associated remuneration, Goulburn unfortunately isn't. Government is a business like any other and it has an epicentre.

 

5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

If you want to meet a potential market requirement as you appear to be doing, guesswork isn't enough; you have to do the hard yards and go out and talk to the market; they'll give you the whys and why nots on their travel arrangements.

Reading through the proposal it appears a thorough analysis was done in the case of the 2nd Canberra airport including an analysis from Deloitte Access Economics.

https://www.cmd.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/420625/Released_Documents_-_Williamsdale_GA_Airfield_-_DRAFT_Brief.pdf

 

The ACT is  limited in actual areas where aircraft can operate due to terrain and the controlled airspace.

[turboplanner]

36 minutes ago, Ian said:

Reading through the proposal it appears a thorough analysis was done in the case of the 2nd Canberra airport including an analysis from Deloitte Access Economics.

https://www.cmd.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/420625/Released_Documents_-_Williamsdale_GA_Airfield_-_DRAFT_Brief.pdf

This plays no part in the Planning Process as I found out on a couple of cases in the early days.

 

36 minutes ago, Ian said:

 

The ACT is  limited in actual areas where aircraft can operate due to terrain and the controlled airspace.

No one has stepped up and said they want to build an alternative to Goulburn, but they would be looking at NSW as well, which offers locations closer than Goulburn.

[skippydiesel]

"Canberra airport has been treated as a real estate asset, and it has monopoly power."

 

The slavish adoption of the market economy financial model (Reagan/Thatcher) has been, for the most part, a disaster that we continue to pursue, (education/health/toll roads/etc) by subterfuge (lack of funding being the most common tool).

The Federal Gov, in pursuit of this discredited economic model,  sold/gave away the public's assets (airfields) all over Australia, without a thought to the future negative impact.

This was/is an act of criminal proportions. What stagers me is the politicians, making these decisions, have for the most part been the beneficiary of a more socialist outlook.

Unless we change to a more caring inclusive philosophy, the likely outcome will be a USA style society/economy, with an extreme divide between the minority very rich & majority poor (check out some S American countries).

Such inequality cannot be sustained without disintegrating into dissolution and or totalitarianism (look at the not so United States of America today).

Totalitarianism can only end in war/revolution (generations to come). Change bought by  blood in the gutters.

Edited May 12 by skippydiesel

[turboplanner]

33 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

"Canberra airport has been treated as a real estate asset, and it has monopoly power."

 

The slavish adoption of the market economy financial model (Reagan/Thatcher) has been, for the most part, a disaster that we continue to pursue, (education/health/toll roads/etc) by subterfuge (lack of funding being the most common tool).

The Federal Gov, in pursuit of this discredited economic model,  sold/gave away the public's assets (airfields) all over Australia, without a thought to the future negative impact.

This was/is an act of criminal proportions. What stagers me is the politicians, making these decisions, have for the most part been the beneficiary of a more socialist outlook.

Unless we change to a more caring inclusive philosophy, the likely outcome will be a USA style society/economy, with an extreme divide between the minority very rich & majority poor (check out some S American countries).

 

Such inequality cannot be sustained without disintegrating into dissolution and or totalitarianism (look at the not so United States of America today).

Totalitarianism can only end in war/revolution (generations to come). Change bought by  blood in the gutters.

An outstanding cry for democracy, Skippy but i would equate it more with Australia's never ending cycle from vertically integrated businesses to horizontally integrated businesses where every separate activity/location is required to make a profit.

 

There's still room in the horizontal model for a sub group to operate at break-even cost.

[Markdun]

Evidently interest in purchasing Goulburn aerodrome has been so great they have decided to extend the time for prospective purchasers to obtain an information park and submit that they are interested.

 

 Regarding airfields in or around the ACT I offer the following comments being an ACT resident since the mid 1970s, being a principal witness to the Justice Stein Judicial Inquiry into dodgy land and planning in the ACT, an aviator since the late 1980s, & currently own an airstrip within 60km of Canberra.

 First, all land in the ACT was purchased using taxpayers’ money in the early 1900s. The intention was that the land in public ownership would see the public (ie. govt) receive the value of the increase in value of the land especially the increase in value due its development as the nation’s  capital and the public investment in infrastructure…hence the ACT’s leasehold system. Unfortunately over time successive govts (Lab/LNP) have given away the benefits of public land ownership to curry favour with certain ppl. Really it was a way for govts of spending money off the books; eg selling a lease, or additional uses to an existing lease, for less than market value. As I showed the Stein inquiry this extended to public servants (as well as Ministers) selling favours, sometimes unlawfully.I demonstrated this with a few examples of several millions of $$ lost. Today, there is little (but still a little) value left…it’s mostly been given away.  The Snow’s fortune was mostly made by purchasing commercial crown leases with short terms (25 years) and converting them to effectively perpetual leases with a 99 year term. Originally the 25 year term of s lease was made because at the time of issue it was thought the nature of the business would change (change in use), & the govt would suction auction a new lease at the end of 25 years (ie. a rational decision). But instead they allowed the lease to be converted to a perpetual lease. with a big discount…. Think as a property owner,, would you give a renter the land title for nothing just because they paid re years?

 The problem I see in the Williamsdale proposal is that it was put as a commercial one, and we all know that owning airports is not very profitable (unless they are exempt from local planning laws like Sydney & Cbr, or have effective geographic monopoly).  In my view it would have been better to approach the issue as a spring/recreational facility like golf clubs or football stadiums (though stadiums are really not so opaque subsidies to gambling and media companies).  The ACT govt gave a small fortune to the ACT gliding club to upgrade their facilities at Bunyan (NSW), so it seems to me they could give a similar fortune to ACT aviators in an opaque land grant (concessional lease) like they do for churches, Telstra, various other  wealthy lobby groups etc etc.

As for suitable land around Cbr, there are various possibilities including land destroyed by mining (cadmium poisoned land on the banks of the Molonglo R towards Captains Flat/Hoskinstown, sthn shores of Lake George ex-sandmining, the Sydney rubbish dump/Woodlawn), Collector, & west of Murrumbateman.  Can’t see a huge conflict with other users for a public airstrip at Woodlawn ir Lk George sand mines…but who knows. Just requires some investors to negotiate with the miners.

As for private strips. I know that there are 4 other strips within 5 nm of mine; 2 are very large and not used, & 2 are well used. Class G to 6500 so plenty of room, but lots of vfr traffic including heavy military rotorcraft.  Methusla has used my strip in the past in his Thruster, & I think most would agree with him that it can be character building despite its 750m length.