Savannah/Ventura

[Christin]

Hi friends, 

I'm new to building and am about to start building a Ventura in Australia. As there hasn't been one being built in Australia yet, I'm happy for any advise. The main bits should be fairly similar to the Savannah I guess, so my first question:Do you recommend any additional primer apart from the black water based primer? 

The other one:

Does anyone have any clecos left over for sale? I'm literally just about to start building and am still trying to get my head around a few things. 

Any general advice also appreciated. 

Happy to talk about progression of the project if anyone is interested. 

Cheers

 

[IBob]

Hi Christin..........the start of a special journey, then?

When I built my Savannah, I did not use the black stuff, I primed everything. But it's a fair bit of extra work, you need the facilities and it holds up production: with the black stuff you can prep as many or as few parts as you like, whenever you like. With other coatings you pretty much have to do them in larger batches.

I did not know much about the black stuff, and thought what I was doing would be a major improvement. Frankly, I now doubt that.

 

If I were building again, I would use the black stuff, since there are enough hours in the build without adding to them unnecessarily.
Other builders here have come up with a good roller system for applying it, and I would say that is essential. Surfaces need to be cleaned. It needs to go on both surfaces of any joins and laps. And it needs to be allowed to dry before assembly.
Enjoy your build!

[sfGnome]

Well, look what just landed in my garage… Yep, I’m building a Ventura too (hi Christin! Bruce here).
 

I was watching Grand Designs last night, and the general theme of that episode was that the builder was so focussed on enjoying the build that she wasn’t at all worried about when she was going to finish. I think I can identify with that. 😛

[IBob]

I guess a principal consideration re priming is whether the aircraft will be in a corrosive environment.

[facthunter]

Paint CAN add a lot of weight to a sheet metal Plane. Doing overlaps and rivet holes would be my priority..  Nev

[Marty_d]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

Paint CAN add a lot of weight to a sheet metal Plane. Doing overlaps and rivet holes would be my priority..  Nev

That's where I ended up.  The choices are endless - some people like full alodyning (or whatever the modern equivalent is - I think Mark did this with his new parts).  Then there's priming, the black stuff (which probably has a name) and if you're building and flying in a desert, probably nothing at all.  I believe 6061-T6 has some anti-corrosive properties anyway.

 

So I decided to just use etch primer on the joining edges of both pieces, and where riveting.  This will NOT be the right approach for everyone so don't take it as advice on what to do.

 

[facthunter]

Horses for courses. The early Pipers. (prior to the Flood) were exceptionally well corrosion Proofed. You'd be crazy to have a floatplane operating in salt which wasn't. . I don't think the alodine treatment adds much weight. I still have some but it's not nice to handle.  Nev

[Christin]

Thanks for all the input. I'll definitely be landing on beaches. I've heard complete opposite opinions on Allodyne by now. Some say definitely not on Aluminium, others say it's the best and others say not for home builds as you need to paint it within 24 hours of Allodyning. Everyone said great anti corrosive, but questionable if money, time and health hazard are necessary in this case. So I might just go with the black stuff( it somewhat makes me happy that no one actually knows the name).

Now that we're talking primer... it's still a bit far away, but any recommendations on primer and paints once paint job will start and how many coats are recommended?

Any inputs on dimpling vs drilling for counter sinking?

 

[IBob]

You're a brave man Christin: paint systems has to be one of the most controversial topics........everyone knows best, if only what they knew best would line up!

You don't do much countersinking on a Savannah, I don't know about the Ventura. But the one tool I wish I'd had was proper self-centering countersink bits.

[Christin]

I'm still being optimistic and try to practice before going to the real parts. Brave woman I must be then 😁

I take it as a compliment 😉

[IBob]

Ahem.........brave person!!!
8 years ago I was asking similar questions........the thread is still there in the Savannah section, title That Black Stuff.

[Blueadventures]

18 minutes ago, Christin said:

Thanks for all the input. I'll definitely be landing on beaches. I've heard complete opposite opinions on Allodyne by now. Some say definitely not on Aluminium, others say it's the best and others say not for home builds as you need to paint it within 24 hours of Allodyning. Everyone said great anti corrosive, but questionable if money, time and health hazard are necessary in this case. So I might just go with the black stuff( it somewhat makes me happy that no one actually knows the name).

Now that we're talking primer... it's still a bit far away, but any recommendations on primer and paints once paint job will start and how many coats are recommended?

Any inputs on dimpling vs drilling for counter sinking?

 

Its black stuff; the posts about it said need twice the quantity the Sav build says so that would be best for you and the rollers are the way to go.  Mark Kyle and others talk up the rollers as the way to apply.  I have not built a Sav but their advice and other builders like IBob provide faultless advice.

[IBob]

That's very kind, Blueadventures.

I don't know about faultless in my case. But I got so much from this site, Mark Kyle and others, during my build, I did my best to add to that.
And I did take a lot of pics.

[Christin]

I actually just read the whole black stuff discussion 😁

So in the end, did you paint both surfaces? And did you paint all rivet holes? So ultimately you'll have black stuff on the external part of your skins?

[facthunter]

I'd reckon drilling countersinks in thin alloy is questionable. Has bonding ever been looked at? It's been used successfully on Planes Like the Fokker F 27. The Fairchild licence built in the USA didn't use it and had structural problems in the wing..  Do slow(er) planes really need flush rivetting ? if so mainly on the first part of the wing .Nev

[IBob]

Christin, I did not use it except on the rudder. But I did not have the rollers, and brushing it is hopeless, as you push large amounts of it through all the rivet holes. I also thought it would constantly dry out on rollers, but it seems this is not so if they are capped. I guess because it is water based, not spirit

Another builder was spray priming, so I went that way

But if I was going again, I would get the rollers and use the black stuff.

Whatever you do or use, you do need to treat both surfaces. The reason is that moisture and contaminants can sit in those places where metal meets metal, so you need to protect both pieces of metal.

Facthunter, the Savannah is all pop rivets, but some very few are countersunk, and don't seem to give any trouble. For the most part they are used for things like locating nut plates: once the screw or bolt is into the nut plate and tightened, the rivets are doing nothing.

[IBob]

Correction: Savannah kit assembly is all pop rivets. However the main spars and cockpit side walls come solid riveted from the factory.

[Christin]

Thanks guys. Huge help 🙂

Will probably continue to post questions throughout the build 😁✌️

[Christin]

I must have missed the parts with the rollers. Do you just use normal paint rollers? That was my plan...

[Christin]

[IBob]

Nononono!

There is a narrow roller where you load the paint in the handle and it has a cap to prevent drying out.
Ping Mark here at Kyle Communications, he'll be able to tell you what they are called and where to get them.

[Christin]

How do I ping Mark? 🙂

[IBob]

Personal message is the little envelope on the left of the screen. Click that and write your msg.
Send it to Kyle Communications.

[IBob]

You really need something that rolls on a very narrow strip, or you'll end up with it over whole areas where it's not required, and your can of black stuff will go nowhere. Also that roller will take a whole load of wetting, using still more black stuff. And will dry out, requiring a new roller and yet more black stuff.

[IBob]

Found it. It's called the PaintBuddy Roller.