Savannah/Ventura

[Christin]

Something like that?

[Christin]

Something like this?

[Christin]

Oh sorry, double post

[facthunter]

Being thick wouldn't be a good thing would it  where rivets are involved?  Nev

[Christin]

I've been having so many people telling me stuff and I'm considering to do the Alodine treatment prior to the black stuff. I was wondering though what you do with the stickers? I I can't take them off or I won't find the parts... what did the Alodine people do?

[Marty_d]

Hi Christin,

 

Have a read through Mark Kyle's thread below, I think around page 6 he talks about alodine.

He mentioned an acid bath to prepare the pieces so maybe that helps remove stickers.

You could always make tags with zip ties to reattach part numbers after alodining, or scribble them on the part itself with a marker.

 

 

[IBob]

Yep, you put your finger on just one of the challenges there, especially as a first time builder of a kit you're not yet familiar with.

If you are intent on coating or treating all surfaces, I would look at spray priming: at least with that you can do batches of any size as it suits you, so you can stay on top of what's what. And you're not dealing with baths of noxious chemicals., which I'm not sure how you maintain during a build that will take months and probably years.

[fallowdeer]

Gidday Christin.

 

Re tracking parts subsequent to sticker removal I took a lot of phone pics of parts.  Another technique I found that worked really well for me was to measure the longest dimension of the part to the millimetre  and catalogue that . Turned out to be an excellent way to keep track of everything, particularly on parts that very similar to many others.

[facthunter]

There's no place for thick paint in any of this.  Rivetted Joints rely on close metal contact in a shear situation.  Alodine  doesn't need a bath. It can be wiped on with a clean rag (Use gloves) There's a cleaner process and a treatment process. ALCLAD  sheet has a pure AL coat where the quick forming oxide gives some protection. The undercoat I've used is in a rattle can, but you can get suitable to spray from  a gun as well. from aircraft supply places. It's a Khaki  colour. and a thin coat application...  Nev.

[skippydiesel]

My Sonex Legacy has been undercoated/treated, during the fabrication/pre assembly stage, using the following spayed on products:

• External: DeSoto 51X349
• Internal: Alodined,/ BMS10-11

(I was not involved in the above stage/process)

 

Once completed, the airframe was painted with a high pigment automotive/industrial paint. High pigment so that complete coverage could be archived with a single coating.
 

[facthunter]

That DeSoto reference would be in relation to a colour code.. I'd consider instead of 2 pack to use an acrylic Lacquer. It blends and touches upwell and a thin coat will do. Thick coats CHIP easily, Avoid soft Primer fillers. Hopeless under anything and make chipping of the surface worse.  RED  is the colour that fades most.Nev

[skippydiesel]

"That DeSoto reference would be in relation to a colour code"

 

Wrong!  Its  a two pack, very thin primer - dull olive green. Consider asking a question, rather than making a incorrect statement.😈

Edited June 16 by skippydiesel

[facthunter]

You  ARE a bit unfriendly and touchy. . It WAS asked as a question. DeSoto is one of the four cars under one maker. Dodge Chrysler DeSoto and Plymouth. Why does talking to YOU always end up SO unpleasant.? .  Nev

[Kyle Communications]

Christian

 

I would not alodine any of my aircraft again its a massive job..looks really great and if it was living next to the ocean or I had it on floats then maybe the alodine again. 

The black stuff is all you need to be honest just make sure you apply it on both mating surfaces and let it dry before you do the join. That black stuff is damn good and it prevents any corrosion between joints or mating surfaces. The alu is 6061T6 and it is not supposed to have any sort of major corrion but it still can if it is not prepped properly.

The only thing you need to do is the black stuff and where you are going to place rivets its a good idea to run over those lines with etch prime and even dip you rivets into some etch prime before you rivet them. A good etch prime over the whole aircraft external before painting. The alodine is overkill for most aircraft.

After building 2 savannahs and helps a lot of other doing their kits this is what I now do.

I have a RANS S-21 Outbound kit being done now. I am using the black stuff on every mating surface...like the tops of the ribs and then the corresponding position of that rib on the skin and the same with any other mating joint in the aircraft. There is no alodine in this S21 just the black stuff and etch prime as I said

 

If you go through the Sav S rebuild you will see what I mean about the etch prime over where you will rivet skins as this at least gives you a layer of protection under the rivet heads...this is where most corrosion occurs

 

 

Mark

[Christin]

Thanks heaps for your input guys. The aircraft will most times be in rough terrain. I'm planning to fly around Australia and land in many beaches. It will be stored outside for quite some time, that's why I was thinking of doing something extra for corrosion proofing. Another guy recommended to use a 2 pac primer on all parts prior to assembling that you can spray on. Some type of zinc cromate. He said to use prepwash first,  let dry, spray on a thin layer of primer,  let dry, assemble and still use black stuff. That sounds easier than Alodine and I could write parts numbers with permanent marker in the inside of the skins so I don't get confused. Any thoughts about this approach? Any recommendations on what primer is best and where to purchase? 

Thanks 😊 

[Blueadventures]

34 minutes ago, Christin said:

Thanks heaps for your input guys. The aircraft will most times be in rough terrain. I'm planning to fly around Australia and land in many beaches. It will be stored outside for quite some time, that's why I was thinking of doing something extra for corrosion proofing. Another guy recommended to use a 2 pac primer on all parts prior to assembling that you can spray on. Some type of zinc cromate. He said to use prepwash first,  let dry, spray on a thin layer of primer,  let dry, assemble and still use black stuff. That sounds easier than Alodine and I could write parts numbers with permanent marker in the inside of the skins so I don't get confused. Any thoughts about this approach? Any recommendations on what primer is best and where to purchase? 

Thanks 😊 

Best method is follow Marks recipe 100%. 

[Kyle Communications]

The black goop is a must but it must go on first to the bare alu. No primer at all for the black stuff. Its a water based paint that when dry seals oxygen off totally under where is was painted. dont put primer under it or over it. Make sure you always clean the bare alu with acetone of similar before putting the goop on to remove any oil/grease that maybe on the sheets. Where maybe black stuff may be seen depending on the lay of the parts allways prefit the parts then use masking tape to get a perfect line because once the black stuff sets its can be removed but its elbow grease and acetone and a scotchbrite otherwise you will see it under your paint

What engine are you putting in?...It really needs to be a 915IS or similar hp

 

 

[skippydiesel]

A possibly less nasty substitute, for Acetone, is Isopropanol (100%) - cost effective purchase from wholesale industrial/domestic cleaning suppliers

[IBob]

I used thinners: maybe not ideal?

And really sticking my neck out here:

A local spray shop told me they used to paint aluminium panelled icecream vans. They would wipe down beforehand with a meths/water mix (which is pretty much what is in window cleaning solution).
 

[skippydiesel]

10 minutes ago, IBob said:

I used thinners: maybe not ideal?

And really sticking my neck out here:

A local spray shop told me they used to paint aluminium panelled icecream vans. They would wipe down beforehand with a meths/water mix (which is pretty much what is in window cleaning solution).
 

Thinnes will do the job (may containe Acetone). Unfortunatly it's nasty stuff (may also be more costly) compared with Isopropanol.

 

I learnt about Isopropanol, as a pre paint surface cleaner, when I did the refurb of my Zephyr, using a US certified aircraft paint system - it was their go to prep product. Have used it ever since for all sorts of cleaning jobs.

[Marty_d]

Isopropanol is another name for Isopropyl Alcohol.  Usually available in small spray bottles for cleaning small parts, but you can get it in 5L containers.

Not sure how much postage would be so it'd be a bonus to have a local supplier.

[facthunter]

I have some stuff called Alumiprep, for cleaning the bare aluminium of aircraft skins.  there s a product for cars etc called wax and grease remover. Nev

[sfGnome]

12 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

The only thing you need to do is the black stuff and where you are going to place rivets its a good idea to run over those lines with etch prime and even dip you rivets into some etch prime before you rivet them.

 

4 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

No primer at all for the black stuff.

Just to clarify, where you talk about etch primer on the rivet lines, you mean on the outside of the skin only (ie not on the inside where the black stuff is)?

 

Does having primer under the rivets stop them from making a tight joint? Could the layer of primer flatten over time and allow the rivets to loosen?

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

Isopropanol is another name for Isopropyl Alcohol.  Usually available in small spray bottles for cleaning small parts, but you can get it in 5L containers.

Not sure how much postage would be so it'd be a bonus to have a local supplier.

Yep! That's how I purchase it in 5L containers from my local wholesale cleaning products supplier. The stuff you get from Bunnings etc is in very small volume and cost a fortune.

I usually decant into a spray bottle - great for all sorts of cleaning/degreasing jobs. I suspect it "conditions" a painted surface, such that overpainting takes/key in better

[Kyle Communications]

Iso is no where near as good as acetone. Acetone is fine dont be a pussy just like anything use your head how you use it. I use much more carcenogenic liquids in my electronics manufacture. its like anything .... use the right gloves and wear a mask..takes 30 seconds to put both on. Use the best stuff for the job. Anything can kill you