Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[Mike Gearon]

Haven’t been on this site for a while. Finally building the Rans S21 again and posted an update. I thought I’d ask the question regarding which call to make if you’re only going to make the one. There is some controversy in my local area over this.

 

I searched on the site for support of the Base Call. I found the following from a 2017 post.

 

 

“If you are doing circuits and really feel the desperate need to say something then the safest call is the Base call with intentions. If you call Downwind you may over transmit another aircraft calling joining downwind, if you call Final you can over transmit someone taxiing for or entering the runway. Remember, the key to safe use of the radio is to make the recommended "trigger" calls and listen! Do not turn the volume down so you can talk to thestudent or passenger (the number of times I've seen this!), don't just make rote calls, think, transmit then listen”

My own opinion is that the base call is really unhelpful. See image here.
 

7 entries to circuit and all can benefit from a downwind call from aircraft in the circuit. Base call isn’t going to help inbound aircraft.

 

So, I’d be interested in learning of airports around Australia and what calls are taught by the flight schools. 
 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

The downwind leg is the latest place you can alter your touch down time by much. Calling while turning makes you more visible. Base for 27 full stop  can be useful to those ready to line up and is a pretty precise point generally. Tailor to the circumstances. Speak clearly Not too fast and don't waffle on.. .Nev

[sfGnome]

Interesting. I was taught that the minimum (minimum sensible, not minimum legal) was a call on joining the circuit, and then on turning base with intentions. Where I’m currently flying, I often hear calls on downwind, base and final. When there’s two or more people doing that, the airwaves get a bit crowded… 🤨

[PureCaboose]

1 hour ago, sfGnome said:

Interesting. I was taught that the minimum (minimum sensible, not minimum legal) was a call on joining the circuit, and then on turning base with intentions. Where I’m currently flying, I often hear calls on downwind, base and final. When there’s two or more people doing that, the airwaves get a bit crowded… 🤨

I am the same; call on joining the circuit and then again when turning base.

[Mike Gearon]

Okay. I was hoping to get more info. I’m going to call flight schools one by one. I’ll report back. This is what I know goes on locally. We are talking flight school instruction to students in the circuit.

 

Tooradin. All 3 calls.

Tyabb. Base only and no calls if there are no other aircraft in the circuit and no incoming aircraft. (Note, Tyabb has a new operations manager and things could be adjusted)

 

 

Edited June 16 by Mike Gearon

[cscotthendry]

I'll third that, call on joining and on base … but for everyone's sake, Base call WITH intentions.

Also, while I'm on a rant, will people please give an ETA to circuit when doing their 10 mile inbound call! Please don't make the rest of us have to calculate if we're going to be in conflict with a trike or a RV rocket ship. It's easy enough to get your GPS or EFB to show you a circuit ETA so you don't have to do maths in your head, which BTW you SHOULD be able to do for your aircraft from when you did your Nav training.

[turboplanner]

CASA divested most of their legal liability for radio calls by switching to the see and be seen policy, throwing the legal liability or using a radio onto the PIC. That's pretty normal across all industries. If you work in a factory operating a saw, once upon a time a DLI government inspector would go around making sure all the saw guards were in place and issuing a compliance ticket. Now you have to ensure the guard is in place and your employer will usually send you for a training certificate to operate specific machinery.

 

CASA's action is not different to that, so it's unlikely in most cases that you would meet your safety obligations with just one call.

Just relying on some other person's advice on "What I do is...." isn't going to gt you out of trouble if there's an accident.

 

This link "Radio procedures in non-controlled airspace" tells you your radio obligations in Class G.

It includes:       

• When you MUST make a call
• When you SHOULD make a call
• Calls recommended ALL the time
• Calls when there is other traffic

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-05/radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf

[Headwind]

Turbo’s answer is the correct one. 
 

[skippydiesel]

My personal theory & practice;

I believe that, when in flight, human eyesight is poorly adapted to spotting other aircraft, ergo any help that I can get/offer will assist in making that so important visual connection when in congested (circuit) airspace.

I also believe in air courtesy - making it easier for other pilots to know where I am & what I intend.

 

[Mike Gearon]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

CASA divested most of their legal liability for radio calls by switching to the see and be seen policy, throwing the legal liability or using a radio onto the PIC. That's pretty normal across all industries. If you work in a factory operating a saw, once upon a time a DLI government inspector would go around making sure all the saw guards were in place and issuing a compliance ticket. Now you have to ensure the guard is in place and your employer will usually send you for a training certificate to operate specific machinery.

 

CASA's action is not different to that, so it's unlikely in most cases that you would meet your safety obligations with just one call.

Just relying on some other person's advice on "What I do is...." isn't going to gt you out of trouble if there's an accident.

 

This link "Radio procedures in non-controlled airspace" tells you your radio obligations in Class G.

It includes:       

• When you MUST make a call
• When you SHOULD make a call
• Calls recommended ALL the time
• Calls when there is other traffic

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-05/radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf

Okay, that’s good information. However, the comparison with a factory isn’t the right one. The saw operator is only going to cut their own hand off.  We are more comparable with road rules. There are multiple fast moving objects involved.

 

I’m still looking for information. Should have made the title…. What does your flying school teach for in circuit calls?

 

Can we start with Moorabin. Aircraft are flying from there to CTAF airports all the time. What call or calls are the Moorabin flight schools teaching? Obviously the inbound, joinining and touch and go departure calls. If that aircraft decided to stay in the circuit which call/ calls are taught? 
 

Downwind, base and final?

Downwind and base?

Downwind only

Base only?

Other?

 

[Neil_S]

In addition, when departing the circuit please do NOT say " departing for the training area" - those of us not familiar with your airfield and training area will have no clue what direction the training area may be from the airfield. Give a bearing instead, eg "departing the circuit on crosswind tracking north-east on climb to 3500"

 

Cheers,

Neil

[BurnieM]

1 hour ago, Mike Gearon said:

Okay, that’s good information. However, the comparison with a factory isn’t the right one. The saw operator is only going to cut their own hand off.  We are more comparable with road rules. There are multiple fast moving objects involved.

 

I’m still looking for information. Should have made the title…. What does your flying school teach for in circuit calls?

 

Can we start with Moorabin. Aircraft are flying from there to CTAF airports all the time. What call or calls are the Moorabin flight schools teaching? Obviously the inbound, joinining and touch and go departure calls. If that aircraft decided to stay in the circuit which call/ calls are taught? 
 

Downwind, base and final?

Downwind and base?

Downwind only

Base only?

Other?

I think you already have this information just not presented as 'what is taught'.

 

When performing circuits at Shelharbour call turning base whether other traffic is heard or not.

If traffic not previously heard calls inbound or joining then call with current position in the circuit.

 

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Mike Gearon said:

O..................................

 

I’m still looking for information. Should have made the title…. What does your flying school teach for in circuit calls?

 

Can we start with Moorabin. Aircraft are flying from there to CTAF airports all the time. What call or calls are the Moorabin flight schools teaching? Obviously the inbound, joinining and touch and go departure calls. If that aircraft decided to stay in the circuit which call/ calls are taught? 
 

Downwind, base and final?

Downwind and base?

Downwind only

Base only?

Other?

 

All of the above, depending on the situation.

 

It almost seems like you are searching /looking for a rule. The student MUST be taught to respond to the dynamics of the situation in/approaching/departing the circuit and communicate accordingly. 

 

I operate on the basis that at least two calls are required, even if there does not appear to be any other aircraft in the vicinity.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Mike Gearon said:

Okay, that’s good information. However, the comparison with a factory isn’t the right one. The saw operator is only going to cut their own hand off.  We are more comparable with road rules. There are multiple fast moving objects involved.

The principle applicable to aircraft is:

Old prescriptive system: CASA decided how you would operate safety and made rules (for which they were legally responsible).

Self Administration system: CASA provides the basic guide; you are legally responsible for what you do.

 

The VFRG should be able to provide everything you need to know.

 

Plus, if radio isn't mentioned: https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-05/radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

[Thruster88]

I would like to make a rule that all calls in the ctaf cannot include local place names. Direction and distance only. Not everyone is a local. WTF is that place. 

[Mike Gearon]

Leongatha is downwind and base calls.

 

i guess I’ll just gather them and list. Feel free to add please or let me know if have them wrong. This is instructed calls in the circuit. Ideally it’s to gather a picture of how this operates throughout Australia. 

[Mike Gearon]

7 hours ago, turboplanner said:

The principle applicable to aircraft is:

Old prescriptive system: CASA decided how you would operate safety and made rules (for which they were legally responsible).

Self Administration system: CASA provides the basic guide; you are legally responsible for what you do.

 

The VFRG should be able to provide everything you need to know.

 

Plus, if radio isn't mentioned: https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-05/radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

May I ask what calls instructors from Morrabin teach in circuits at uncontrolled airfields?

[facthunter]

 A significant % of people won't give you the "Bearing" they are FROM the place even as  say East North east North etc.  To give an incorrect one is worse than none as you are looking where the Person isn't. Talk about efn dangerous.. A lot need to lift their game. I was typing at the time you were, so it's not directly relevant.  Nev

Edited June 17 by facthunter
more content.

[turboplanner]

11 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

May I ask what calls instructors from Morrabin teach in circuits at uncontrolled airfields?

I've had about 20 instructors over the years; about five were outstanding  so I wouldn't go there.

 

Moorabbin is a dual circuit operation so it starts with  knowing  how to use the ATIS to pick the entry point for the runway you have to use and the procedures in from the entry point.

 

If you're just looking for a swat list of radio calls, I'd phone the Tower and book a time to go up with the ATC guys and you'll hear wht they hear. I've done it and it shows you the god the bad and the ugly, a great yeaching tool, and they explain "I told him this because he ........." etc.

 

Then book a conversion with one of the training centres.

[RFguy]

which radio calls to make on approach..... That depends on the situation.

 

1) The below are not always my rules, but I ask myself- "what should-could I say that is useful, to assist another pilot " ?

2) Additional calls beyond minimum 10 mile and joining - make those extra calls concise and quick. Minimum air traffic.

 

a) Even if NOTHING is happening minimum 10 mile call and joining circuit call. where ever that it is.

 

b) other aircraft approaching and joining - additional calls to resolve potential conflict early ---- - position(approx bearing NW/W etc , distance, altitude)   when a couple of miles out just before joining, and turning base or turning final.

 

c) an aircraft waiting to take off , or backtracking etc- provide them some extra info , is late downwind, turning base call , maybe a turning final call etc. Not too much though !. When entering/ holding short - even if I know roughly where at aircraft is, I'll ask for other aircraft position if I have any doubts.

 

d) 5 aircraft in circuit (not uncommon at cowra - calls are usually base turning crosswind, late downwind, turning base leg, turning final leg ).

 

e) sometimes, radio is busy when you might otherwise make a turning call.....so in that case, its reasonabl to mention which leg....
IE  : just "DRF is base, Cowra" if the radio was busy at the time you were turning base. Downwind calls should have an additional word (early, mid  (or abeam RWY) , and  late) .

 

Aircraft on RWY can be seen by aircraft in circuit, so no extra call required by those ACFT except entering RWY etc in those cases.

 

Sometimes an aircraft is waiting waiting waiting holding short to get out. If you are feeling generous and there isnt anyone behind you to screw up their approach, I will tell that waiting aircraft I will extend my downwind  and slow down a bit to give them some time  to get out (and do it regardless whether they said yes please or no, because I have to assume that they heard or think I will be extending my downwind.

 

turning (leg) calls are useful because it pins your position in another pilots mind (and helps them know where to look)

glen

Edited June 17 by RFguy

[Mike Gearon]

45 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

I've had about 20 instructors over the years; about five were outstanding  so I wouldn't go there.

Okay, I think I need to call in and we do this the old fashioned way in a face to face 🙂 That’s not what I’m asking. I’m driving your way today and will call. Daughters 34th birthday so I’m flying to Tyabb and driving your direction.

 

Instructors going out to non controlled airspace outside Moorabin such as Tooradin, Tyabb or Leongatha to conduct circuit with their students……

 

Will they be calling downwind only, base only, all 3 or another combination. Or… do they all have different styles and the student won’t know what they get between different instructors? I can’t imagine this is the case. It also gets to the crux of what I’m seeing as a problem for students and the rest of the flying community. The CASA system of make whatever call you feel like has ended up with very different instruction styles at different schools. Potentially dangerous for everyone involved.

 

So, if you’re a student in an area with say 3 different radio call procedures at the 3 different schools. All systems have their merit. I’m very anti base only call because I experience student pilots and graduates of some schools making a very regimented base only call even when hearing pilots make inbound calls to join crosswind, downwind or base. 
 

The current CASA system may work when you look at the big picture and want it somewhat self regulating with a certain number of mandatory calls. It completely falls apart when you look at it from the perspective of non standard radio procedures across Australia. This is my point. I won’t bother gather flight school information by phoning schools. It really isn’t my job. You’d think a CASA employee or decision maker would be gathering this vital data. Maybe they have?  I’ll list right here what I believe the percentages will be.

 

FLIGHT SCHOOLS ACROSS AUSTRALIA RADIO INSTRUCTION FOR STUDENTS IN CIRCUITS

 

30% all 3 calls. Downwind, base and final.

30% Downwind and base.

20% Base only.

20% instructors all have their own style and students experience changing procedures between instructors.

 

okay… my work is done. I’ll get back to farming, building the Rans S21, starting a new wind turbine business (call me for a 3kw wind turbine $10,000 inc 6m folding tower)2 Taiwan businesses and family stuff.
 

 

[facthunter]

Tailor it to the circumstances A reply is the only way you know you are transmitting to start with  Is your volume down too far?  10 miles (Where) with intentions. Over fly to check the windsock. Risky places. descending (on down wind) or turning final). Turning final is the Place most stalls happen. More likely when you are busy.. PLAN where to go if people do something different or appear in a dangerous place. ETC.  Nev

[sfGnome]

4 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

do they all have different styles and the student won’t know what they get between different instructors?

That’s been my experience. 🫤

 

I will add to my earlier comments that although I was taught “inbound, joining and base” and generally did that for years, I noticed that when I was recently regaining my right to fly, my instructor would also give our position in response to any first call from a ‘new’ aircraft in the area. Given that we have RPT (straight in, very fast) and lots of commercial flights that join on base (aka straight in but with a slight kink so they don’t have to set up 3 miles out), it made a lot of sense to me. 

[Blueadventures]

18 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

Leongatha is downwind and base calls.

 

i guess I’ll just gather them and list. Feel free to add please or let me know if have them wrong. This is instructed calls in the circuit. Ideally it’s to gather a picture of how this operates throughout Australia. 

The way I understand things is Inbound call at 10 N/mls or earlier; next immediately before joining circuit (so either Downwind or Base join) (If joining downwind I give no further calls, I'm in the circuit so no need to the base and final.  Only exception I make is if an aircraft is lined up and I extend downwind I will call turning base, final to update the aircraft lined up.)

 

Straight in is 10 N/mls or before including straight in intention and the call by 3 N/mls of threshold.

[skippydiesel]

Hi Blue,

 

All good however I have a small but think significant, variation; I like to overfly (above circuit height) & make an Overhead The Field call, especially when landing at a strange, to me, airfield but even on my home strip.

 

This does several things;

• Confirms wind/ circuit direction
• Helps with visualis coming ground opp (where is the Clubhouse/ parking, in relation to active runway, exit taxi)
• Check for; maintenance activities, animals, etc
• Gives me time & perspectives find aircraft already in the circuit
• I make an overhead call - this places me within a small  3 dimensional location, for other pilots (in or entering the circuit) to locate me. Included in my OH call is my joining & landing intention (from, X wind, ful stop/T&G) 

The above is not required and does slightly add to the time aloft however it helps me and I hope informs others pilots in the vicinity.