Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[F10]

Then there's the crafty "established on a 3 mile final" call, despite other circuit traffic......I got this one when on late downwind for Latrobe...Final traffic is supposed to have right of way, 3 miles out is that in the circuit? Do I continue and turn base at my normal position? (I fly fairly tight circuits in the Gazelle, don't get me started on the 747 size circuit artists...), By rights I could.....But it's n ot that simple. Because the following questions popped into my head. How fast will he be on final? Will he catch me up? Will he see me below his nose in final?.....*So I chose the safer for me, option, and extended downwind till I had him sighted and turned final number 2 to him. As well as letting him know by callsign, that I had him sighted and was planning to go number 2 to him which he at least acknowledged. But to me he had pretty much barged into the circuit by joining on final. If there's other circuit traffic and actually, even when there's not, I almost always join overhead. It gives me time to have a good look at the wind/runway direction, and time to develop my SA of the circuit traffic.  

[skippydiesel]

Hi F10,

 

I'm with you on overflying, before descending to join the circuit - lots of pluses cant think of a serious negative.

 

Again like you, I get concerned with straight in approaches, for all the reasons you mentioned. In my limited experince this is typical of commuter (RPT) aircraft - fast & big! Best to keep out of their way. 

 

Its some time since I had a RPT call to say they were on (very) long final, when I was established in the circuit,- I decided I would like to "orbite" at some distance, convenient to rejoining the circuit, with a good view of the approaching RPT (I communicated this to the CP & was thanked for my consideration). I rejoined the circuit, when I assessed I could make my landing, after he had left the active runway - all good!.

Edited October 18 by skippydiesel

[kgwilson]

I have only approached other pilots on the ground when I heard nothing from them to find out why they didn't make a radio call. In 2 incidents their radios were not transmitting but they thought they were and in one it was not transmitting or receiving. The discussion was useful for all 3 as they agreed to get their radios checked, well that's what they said anyway.

[robinsm]

Make all the calls.   If they know where you are then it makes it safer for you and them.    I had a couple of close calls because trainees from city based schools did not make calls and I only avoided a collision because I was lucky enough to see them.   Safety first, make all calls even if some consider it excessive.  

[pmccarthy]

I have twice simulated radio failure in an unfamiliar aircraft by plugging my headset into the passenger socket.

[Mike Gearon]

21 hours ago, facthunter said:

XYZ "Say again" or "Confirm so and so" is OK.  

Recently…..Taking a friend sightseeing so a departure straight out to Phillip Island. Tried not to be distracted but I didn’t call altitude on departure call. Noted it on sign off but didn’t update the call.  Glad I had ADSB in. I  could see an aircraft that was going to track north directly over the top of me. That aircraft was 2500ft and had been my intended altitude. I think we’d have very nicely met up at 2500ft without ADSB in and out. 
 

I called with altitude at that point and kept it low as they passed directly overhead heading north. Also, while this was going on Tyabb had 17 and 35 circuit calls same time and the corresponding flurry of calls to sort that out.

 

My friend was very interested in taking up flying. That is right up until the combination of aircraft over the top of us and 2 circuit aircraft aimed at each other all happening at once seemed to put him right off! I assured him nothing like that had ever happened before and not to worry about it. 
 

The concurrent situations were both primarily related to radio calls and corresponding actions. ADSB was a good backup.
 

Calls to “confirm so and so” as Facthunter mentions weren’t in my playbook. Say again certainly was. I’ll use “confirm” where appropriate in future and juggle that with not jamming up radio with unnecessary calls. As the story above shows it’s unusual but not I’mpossible to have a number of potential conflicts happen at once. My friend stayed 3 days and situation was second day. Had him light on controls behind me last day of flight including turns, ascents and descents while turning  etc and interest returned….I  think. 
 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

SAY again is pretty standard. Confirm is pretty clear. REPEAT after (word) also. Vertical separation is the most RELIABLE till visual passing is assured and confirmed. Your Passenger was aware of the dangers with justification.. You can't expect an unending supply of luck. Nev

[kgwilson]

Original radio pro words from the old FRTO licence seem to have evolved somewhat. "Roger" has been replaced with "Copy", "Say Again" with "Repeat" etc with some pilots. Even contacting ATC seems to have relaxed its formality other than ensuring you read back correctly. So long as the message is clear and unambiguous it doesn't matter so long as you know the other party has received & understood the message & vice versa.

 

I am a bit of a traditionalist & always use Say Again (your last message) or (all after......). With all of the foreign students we have around here a lot of the calls are almost impossible to understand. Sometimes the instructor would respond but now the instructor is also foreign with English as their second language and some accents are pretty heavy. My other pet hate is smart arses who use machine gun calls. I never get all of the message when this happens.

[turboplanner]

On 14/10/2024 at 2:30 PM, F10 said:

I agree in this case, fully with Dan Gryder when he says force the other aircraft to talk to you...I was joining overhead at Latrobe one fine day, and after each call I heard an aircraft call, which sounded like he was in line astern formation with me....despite trying to twist around I could not see him. He of course gave no indication that he had seen me. I then asked directly, "(Callsign)...Have you got me visual?" Even when not an issue, I will often address an aircraft directly, forcing a reply or at least a double Tx click. My pet peeve, is people who make position reports blindly, giving no indication they have noted the other traffic, even when a conflict could exist. My other PET HATE.....is people who machine gun their radio calls at 3000 words a second. Do people think they sound uber cool if they rapid fire transmissions?

You’re probably listening to someone who flies out of a city airport (8 to 12 in the circuit) and sticks to the formal phrases. There aren’t all that many phrases, so these people can usually pick up a transmission by the syllables if the radio is on the way out. This is why inventing your own phrases and locations are not a good idea if you ever come to the bigger airport. Yes they can and should slow down when they get out to quiet country circuits.

[Red]

Correct term is  Affirmative usually shortened to "Affirm", "Confirm" as Facthinter uses is non standard

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, Red said:

Correct term is  Affirmative usually shortened to "Affirm", "Confirm" as Facthinter uses is non standard

 

I believe that  "Affirmative" is never correct (due to its sound being too close to "Negative").

 

And whereas "Affirm" is only ever used as an answer, "Confirm" is only ever part of a question.

[Bosi72]

It is worth reading first 3 pages of Phraseologies in AIP GEN 3.4-25, and refreshing knowledge on radio calls.

Not only first 3 pages, but other 70 with various scenarios.

 

For those who don't know, AIP can be downloaded for free on 

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/aip.asp

 

or it also comes as part of EFB.

Edited October 19 by Bosi72

[facthunter]

I explained "Confirm" always relates to some thing, like Confirm LEFT turn onto HDG 320 when it's the long way around. ..   Or confirm "clear to take off." or land if you have any doubt.  Nev