Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[kgwilson]

The problem lies with the fact that we are stuck with the crappy VHF band where everywhere else it is UHF and digitally encoded now. The trouble is there are not enough frequencies available for a complete Aviation shift. The GRN/ PSN (Government radio network/ Public Service network) is now fully digital with absolutely crystal clear transmission and with the VAN (vehicle as a node) system utilising satellites where required there is nowhere that communication fails. That is of course dependent upon perfect human operation and that absolutely never happens.

[spacesailor]

UHF.

Is now used for sailing . The HF could get through 2 days sailing distance away from the customs. 

Who stipulated 24 hours advanced notification. 

The UHF can only get a days sailing,  so leaving you

with-out that 24 hours notice .

They are not happy with ' slow sailing ships ' .

( registered shipping) .

spacesailor

 

 

[jackc]

17 hours ago, facthunter said:

We can go to Mars but aircraft radios are still crap. Who arranges for a radio check before committing to fly away somewhere. .  Nev

As far as I am concerned Aviation Communications and its frequency management are prehistoric. The technology fell off the Ark and frequency/operations is a tangled mess, in many places, all ably screwed up by many human beings who use it.

[Mike Gearon]

Youtube just served me up CTAF radio calls from inflight . I think it’s been served up because I was checking once again how to get into Moorabbin. 
 

See the captions here. Instructor is just saying “you don’t need to give departure calls because we’ve just given our intentions on rolling unless there’s a conflict”

 

Has me wondering a couple of things… Maybe I’ll reduce the outbound calls. However, unless there is a conflict is a difficult one. We can’t know there isn’t an aircraft inbound from our departure direction that’s only changed to our CTAF frequency after we made the rolling call. ADSB in and out along with OzRunways/ Avplan helps here.

 

 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

Youtube just served me up CTAF radio calls from inflight . I think it’s been served up because I was checking once again how to get into Moorabbin. 
 

See the captions here. Instructor is just saying “you don’t need to give departure calls because we’ve just given our intentions on rolling unless there’s a conflict”

 

Has me wondering a couple of things… Maybe I’ll reduce the outbound calls. However, unless there is a conflict is a difficult one. We can’t know there isn’t an aircraft inbound from our departure direction that’s only changed to our CTAF frequency after we made the rolling call. ADSB in and out along with OzRunways/ Avplan helps here.

 

 

 

 

 

CASA is talking to pilots in CTF which is different to Class G. You are entering at formal locations, responding to instructions for position and radio and require qualifications.

[BrendAn]

6 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

Youtube just served me up CTAF radio calls from inflight . I think it’s been served up because I was checking once again how to get into Moorabbin. 
 

See the captions here. Instructor is just saying “you don’t need to give departure calls because we’ve just given our intentions on rolling unless there’s a conflict”

 

Has me wondering a couple of things… Maybe I’ll reduce the outbound calls. However, unless there is a conflict is a difficult one. We can’t know there isn’t an aircraft inbound from our departure direction that’s only changed to our CTAF frequency after we made the rolling call. ADSB in and out along with OzRunways/ Avplan helps here.

 

 

 

 

 

where does it end though. are you going to broadcast your intentions every 30 seconds. you should be having a good look in both directions before you call entering and rolling. 

[turboplanner]

23 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

CASA is talking to pilots in CTF which is different to Class G. You are entering at formal locations, responding to instructions for position and radio and require qualifications.

*CTAF

[turboplanner]

22 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

where does it end though. are you going to broadcast your intentions every 30 seconds. you should be having a good look in both directions before you call entering and rolling. 

It’s not going anywhere. Just people in the circuit all calling and responding in tune with each other.

[pmccarthy]

At a country airfield, if there is inbound traffic, it is good practice to announce departing circuit to the east not above 3000 or whatever, jus so everyone knows where they are.

[Mike Gearon]

That’s interesting. Caloundra for circuits at 22 minutes into the clip and they aren’t calling downwind. Instructor is just explaining they won’t be calling downwind unless another join is going to be in conflict. I’m starting to suspect there is no downwind only call instructed  in Australia. It’s likely all calls, base only or base and final.

 

I did note the instructor saying that the base call was a chance for joining aircraft to know what the intentions of the aircraft ahead are. Touch and go. Full stop etc. That makes sense but… same could have happened when they turned downwind and the crosswind joining aircraft would have then known perhaps they should conduct an orbit on the dead side. 
 

Does that orbit on non active side require a radio call? I don’t believe so but happy to be corrected. Do we want to make a call? I think that’s obvious. If the orbit is going to potentially cause a conflict make the call.

 

 

[BrendAn]

7 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

It’s not going anywhere. Just people in the circuit all calling and responding in tune with each other.

i mean how far do you  go with radio calls, not how far they travel.😃

Edited July 24 by BrendAn

[skippydiesel]

29 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

where does it end though. are you going to broadcast your intentions every 30 seconds. you should be having a good look in both directions before you call entering and rolling. 

Its a while since I did my last GA BFR however if aged memory serves; At a controlled airfield you ask permission to line up (enter the runway). When permission granted, you may also get be cleared to TO. Without TO permission you don't. TO off will be authorised when appropriate.

[BrendAn]

Just now, skippydiesel said:

Its a while since I did my last GA BFR however if aged memory serves; At a controlled airfield you ask permission to line up (enter the runway). When permission granted, you may also get be cleared to TO. Without TO permission you don't. TO off will be authorised when appropriate.

sorry i should have said i am only talking about uncontrolled airports. 

[skippydiesel]

6 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

At a country airfield, if there is inbound traffic, it is good practice to announce departing circuit to the east not above 3000 or whatever, jus so everyone knows where they are.

Make the call, irrespective of knowing that there is inbound traffic.

[skippydiesel]

7 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said:

That’s interesting. Caloundra for circuits at 22 minutes into the clip and they aren’t calling downwind. Instructor is just explaining they won’t be calling downwind unless another join is going to be in conflict. I’m starting to suspect there is no downwind only call instructed  in Australia. It’s likely all calls, base only or base and final.

 

I did note the instructor saying that the base call was a chance for joining aircraft to know what the intentions of the aircraft ahead are. Touch and go. Full stop etc. That makes sense but… same could have happened when they turned downwind and the crosswind joining aircraft would have then known perhaps they should conduct an orbit on the dead side. 
 

Does that orbit on non active side require a radio call? I don’t believe so but happy to be corrected. Do we want to make a call? I think that’s obvious. If the orbit is going to potentially cause a conflict make the call.

 

 

ALL calls (in non controlled environment) are at the pilot's discretion. He/She should make whatever calls judged necessary for good airmanship (safety of his craft & any others known & unknown, in the area/circuit).

 

Flying is a dynamic activity, within which the PIC must adjust his /her calls according to the circumstances of the moment.

 

YOU as PIC must stop trying to make the responsibility of good communication someone else's ie proscribed.😈

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, skippydiesel said:

ALL calls (in non controlled environment) are at the pilot's discretion. He/She should make whatever calls judged necessary for good airmanship (safety of his craft & any others known & unknown, in the area/circuit).

 

Flying is a dynamic activity, within which the PIC must adjust his /her calls according to the circumstances of the moment.

 

YOU as PIC must stop trying to make the responsibility of good communication someone else's ie proscribed.😈

i make the calls i was taught to make. 

[Thruster88]

A question. If over flying and descending on the dead side for a runway with a right circuit do we make all turns to the right? When I trained all turns were left in the vicinity of the airport. 

[peterg]

11 hours ago, turboplanner said:

CASA is talking to pilots in CTF

crikey I get sick of the rubbish from the "expert" who clearly is not, almost certainly hasn't flown as PIC for many years, the bush lawyer stuff makes my eyes roll - the "expert" clearly hasn't graduated from any of the three law schools that I have etc etc

 

In Australia, air traffic controllers are employed by Air services or the military not CASA

 

 

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, Thruster88 said:

A question. If over flying and descending on the dead side for a runway with a right circuit do we make all turns to the right? When I trained all turns were left in the vicinity of the airport.

At our airfield runways  9, 5 and 14 are right hand circuits. 27 , 23 and 32 are left hand. This is to avoid conflict with traffic taking off from the RAAF base 10 km away . 

[skippydiesel]

12 hours ago, BrendAn said:

i make the calls i was taught to make. 

Of course  - As long as those calls appropriately address the situaton as you are experiencing it at the time.

 

The minute you start to limit (description/number) your calls,  below what is required for good airmanship, is the minute that may be yours and the conflicting aircrafts last.

 

As I keep saying  - when in the air (particularly in congested airspace) you are operating in a dynamic environment. The PIC is responsible for taking what actions/communication he/she judges to be appropriate, for any given situaton, to ensure the safety of his/her aircraft and any other (seen, unseen heard or not) aircraft in the vicinity.

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

A question. If over flying and descending on the dead side for a runway with a right circuit do we make all turns to the right? When I trained all turns were left in the vicinity of the airport. 

Conventional circuit direction, is turns to the left HOWEVER many airfields have unconventional (turn to the right) circuit direction, due to such considerations as, noise abatement, other active runways, etc Consult ERSA for circuit direction at the airfield you plan to visit.

[Bosi72]

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

If over flying and descending on the dead side for a runway with a right circuit do we make all turns to the right

To my knowledge, there are no rules about maneuvering on a dead side. However, if you overfly right-hand ccts and descent turning to the right, you will have more space (longer downwind), as opposed to if you are turning to the left.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Bosi72 said:

To my knowledge, there are no rules about maneuvering on a dead side. However, if you overfly right-hand ccts and descent turning to the right, you will have more space (longer downwind), as opposed to if you are turning to the left.

 

 

Impressed by your sketch - would a signed original be too much to ask for?😈 

[BurnieM]

5 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

A question. If over flying and descending on the dead side for a runway with a right circuit do we make all turns to the right? When I trained all turns were left in the vicinity of the airport. 

I dont think there is a rule but I believe it is good practise to make your dead side turn the same way as the circuit. This lets you more easily check the upwind part of the downwind for conflicting traffic.

[Mike Gearon]

I just met up with a school owner from well north. Almost all the way north…... Asked the usual topic on calls in circuit. Answer was base is called and less calls are better. However, it was stressed that when there is other traffic nobody is scared to talk on the radio to assist situational awareness. It’s encouraged. 
 

Conclusion I’m coming to is that Australia wide it’s base. 
 

I’m also sure the problems myself and others experience at some airfields is related to way too much stress on minimizing calls. Direct result is a lack of downwind call that creates a dangerous gap in situational awareness for incoming aircraft. This will end badly one day!

 

There has to be a compromise between the all calls school and almost no calls school of thought. I get that this doesn’t seem to be something that CASA mandates can fix. I think the schools need to be turning out new pilots with a better awareness of incoming aircraft and the student pilots responsibility to make appropriate calls.