Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[Deano747]

2 hours ago, BurnieM said:

I dont think there is a rule but I believe it is good practise to make your dead side turn the same way as the circuit. This lets you more easily check the upwind part of the downwind for conflicting traffic.

Certainly is in the US.

All turns in the vicinity of the circuit are to be made in the circuit direction.

Stops airplanes flying in opposite directions on the 'dead' side.

[Red]

1 hour ago, Deano747 said:

Certainly is in the US.

All turns in the vicinity of the circuit are to be made in the circuit direction.

Stops airplanes flying in opposite directions on the 'dead' side.

Same in the UK

[Red]

5 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

To my knowledge, there are no rules about maneuvering on a dead side. However, if you overfly right-hand ccts and descent turning to the right, you will have more space (longer downwind), as opposed to if you are turning to the left.

 

 

That drawing sends a shiver down my spine

[BrendAn]

20 minutes ago, Red said:

That drawing sends a shiver down my spine

i wondered about that. why would you do anything besides follow the circuit anyway. i can't see any reason to but i don't know much.

[skippydiesel]

15 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

i wondered about that. why would you do anything besides follow the circuit anyway. i can't see any reason to but i don't know much.

I would like to claim that my piloting skills are such, that I always end up in just the right place in time/space, to make the perfect turn onto the X wind approach but unfortunately this would be a lie.

 

The reality is;  failure to adequately compensate for wind speed/direction, a faster/slower descent than anticipated, etc, occasionally means my turn towards the X wind approach point, is less perfect than I would like. Indeed I have, on occasion, ended up at the wrong end of the field  and have had to modify my approach accordingly - such is life😈. 

[jackc]

No wonder why I would rather fly FAA FAR Part 103 in the U.S.

Australia is a shambles 🤢

[BrendAn]

11 minutes ago, jackc said:

No wonder why I would rather fly FAA FAR Part 103 in the U.S.

Australia is a shambles 🤢

You would think so reading this thread.

[skippydiesel]

Those that claim/infer they have the ability to operate, without error, in a three dimensional aerial environment,  that nature did not equip us for, either physically or mentally, are lying to themselves.

 

That we can fly at all, with a degree of safety, is a technological marvel.

 

We have constructed system & training to enhance safety but this still does not allow us to see the wind or fly like a bird.

 

Those of us who fly small aircraft, without the support of the systems standard in larger aircraft, know that it is impossible not to err from time to time. Anyone who claims otherwise is a danger to themselves and others.

 

 

[BrendAn]

36 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Those that claim/infer they have the ability to operate, without error, in a three dimensional aerial environment,  that nature did not equip us for, either physically or mentally, are lying to themselves.

 

That we can fly at all, with a degree of safety, is a technological marvel.

 

We have constructed system & training to enhance safety but this still does not allow us to see the wind or fly like a bird.

 

Those of us who fly small aircraft, without the support of the systems standard in larger aircraft, know that it is impossible not to err from time to time. Anyone who claims otherwise is a danger to themselves and others.

 

 

who are you actually talking to /about. getting a bit carried away.

[skippydiesel]

10 hours ago, BrendAn said:

who are you actually talking to /about. getting a bit carried away.

All those who are supercritical of the human failings of other pilots.

[facthunter]

We can't fly. It's those aerodynamic flying machines that allow us to do it. and if they stall,  You fall.   That's the first difference you must cope with compared with other ways of getting around. Then you have the 3 dimensions to work in and the fact that the Wind also moves  taking you with it.  ALL pilots have to contend with these FACTS. no matter what aeroplane they fly.. IF that bothers you too much do something else.. Not every person is going to be a good pilot . The "everybody makes mistakes" doesn't cut it. Mistake proof your operation as best you can by good checks and risk assessment. Trust to luck and one day you will have no luck. With some it's only a matter of time.  Don't fly with thrill seekers who want to scare you. Nev

Edited July 26 by facthunter

[Red]

On 25/07/2024 at 12:36 PM, skippydiesel said:

Those that claim/infer they have the ability to operate, without error, in a three dimensional aerial environment,  that nature did not equip us for, either physically or mentally, are lying to themselves.

 

That we can fly at all, with a degree of safety, is a technological marvel.

 

We have constructed system & training to enhance safety but this still does not allow us to see the wind or fly like a bird.

 

Those of us who fly small aircraft, without the support of the systems standard in larger aircraft, know that it is impossible not to err from time to time. Anyone who claims otherwise is a danger to themselves and others.

 

 

Nobody claimed that.

Fact is we have here a thread that has multiple interpretations of flight procedures and little consensus, including  one post claiming in some circumstances its OK to fly in the opposite direction to everyone else whilst joining a circuit.

We aren't talking about people making mistakes here, what we have is people stating different interpretations of procedures that are in their opinions the correct ones.

Edited July 27 by Red

[Garfly]

6 minutes ago, Red said:

Nobody claimed that.

Fact is we have here a thread that has multiple interpretations of flight procedures and little consensus, including  one post claiming in some circumstances its OK to fly in the opposite direction to everyone else whilst joining a circuit.

Nobody claimed that either.

 

Dan Gryder (love him or hate him) conducted a controlled experiment on a YouTube video wherein he tried to show how reluctant pilots can be to simply speak up and negotiate with each other to obviate even obvious possible conflicts.   The implication was do not do this at home.

[jackc]

14 minutes ago, Red said:

Nobody claimed that.

Fact is we have here a thread that has multiple interpretations of flight procedures and little consensus, including  one post claiming in some circumstances its OK to fly in the opposite direction to everyone else whilst joining a circuit.

We aren't talking about people making mistakes here, what we have is people stating different interpretations of procedures that are in their opinions the correct ones.

When regulatory documentation is formulated in a way that can have many interpretations, deliberate or otherwise. Become complicated and overridden by docmentation in other regulatory sections…….then it will always create problems when everything becomes too complex. Done concisely in a minimum number of pages, is how it should be.

My favourite document example is FAA FAR Part 103 rules,  contained on ONE A4 page 🤩🤩

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Red]

1 hour ago, Garfly said:

Nobody claimed that either.

 

 

Go back and look at Bosi72's drawing

[Garfly]

 

 

2 hours ago, Red said:

Go back and look at Bosi72's drawing

Ah, okay, sorry, misunderstanding. 

I thought you were referring to Gryder's video where he really did fly opposite direction to everyone else on purpose, to prove a point.

[Mike Gearon]

On 25/7/2024 at 2:35 PM, Deano747 said:

Certainly is in the US.

All turns in the vicinity of the circuit are to be made in the circuit direction.

Stops airplanes flying in opposite directions on the 'dead' side.

 

I was trained in the USA. I’ve just been trying to google “pattern” because USA uses this in place of circuit. So, googled pattern, directions of  turns dead side. Gave up in the finish but did find this.

 

It’s a turn in the wrong direction. Then I found the discussion below where the FAA was quite responsive to the ambiguity in the depiction and FAA Regs. FAA have all turns within the vicinity of the airport to the left unless specified. The turn to the right before left pattern is considered to be outside the ‘vicinity’ of the airport.

 

Also found the statistics in that graph that show the least number of accidents are downwind. It’s quite annoying when statistics don’t agree with one’s hypothesis. However, downwind calls are made in USA. Downwind calls are probably not going to be made in Australia unless the PIC is situationally aware of conflict or sticking to the old 3 calls in circuit method. So, our Australian stats may be different.

 

Reference to that article here…….https://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/airmanship/traffic-pattern-entries/

 

Note….. I had coffee yesterday with another pilot and tales of close conflict downwind due to lack of downwind call. I also heard that at some flying schools instructors have been berated for making downwind calls “unnecessarily”. I think that’s at the crux of problems. If the instructor feels unable to make downwind calls it certainly isn’t going to be instilled in the students. I’ll return to the point I’ve made previously where an instructor at a local airport called his o’clock position to my aircraft downwind as a workaround to making downwind calls. That’s happened a number of times

[jackc]

I received this video in an unsolicited email last night, no doubt it was to sell ma a training package but, I have great deal of respect how the U.S. aviation people publish stuff and the FAA is a big part of that. 
 

https://flighttrainingcentral.com/2024/07/how-to-identify-airport-runways-and-traffic-patterns-video-tip/?trk_msg=DEGL7N5SM8UKJAGUI83P6F6BOS&trk_contact=7L9GVJVQRP61LH2PQECD4EKS0K&trk_sid=145LSK8T4GDR57878BL4042H18&trk_link=KR50N2813IAKVAGLAPP836SNCO&utm_source=MarketingEmail&utm_medium=email&utm_term=3.+Video+Tip%3a+How+to+Identify+Airport+Runways+and+Traffic+Patterns.&utm_campaign=FF24073A&utm_content=Fast+Five+-+July+27

[Bosi72]

On 25/07/2024 at 4:04 PM, Red said:

That drawing sends a shiver down my spine

 

Overfying and maneuvering (turning, descending, climbing, positioning) on a "dead side" is normal procedure, not part of a circuit/pattern procedure. An airwork may be conducted there. Be prepared to expect anything when vfr in g class, however once in the circuit - everyone follows the same procedure.

 

I was hoping the disclaimer wasn't needed, but I was wrong.

*Disclaimer: The drawing is not to scale

*Warning: choking hazard, might send shiver down the spine

 

[skippydiesel]

Mike,

"Downwind calls are probably not going to be made in Australia unless the PIC is situationally aware of conflict or sticking to the old 3 calls in circuit method."

 

I am unaware of any requirement to "stick to the old 3 calls in circuit".

From my perspective, right or wrong,  the number of calls & their content, will vary, according to the PIC's responsibility to keep his/her aircraft safe and assist in keeping other aircraft in the vicinity safe, by making such calls as deemed necessary.

 

The concept of proscriptive min/max calls is where a lot of pilots go wrong, resulting in excessive calls, cluttering of the airwaves OR insufficient calls for safe aviating.

 

Further; It seems to me, from a safety perspective, that a few to many/long/slow calls, are infinitely better than to few/short/fast calls.

 

[skippydiesel]

 jack,

 

In the video, you posted,  they "prefer" cross wind joins, to downwind, from the live side (active circuit side) . 

 

While permissible, this makes no sense to me, from a safety perspective, as it does not give the PIC confirmation of wind speed/direction, ground opps. and reduces the ability to see/confirme aircraft in the air. Further; it seems to contradicts Mike's earlier diagram .

 

I have always been & continue to advocate for overflying the field prior to descending to circuit height and joining X wind.

 

I would also advocate joining from the dead side, in preference to the live.

Edited July 28 by skippydiesel

[pmccarthy]

Skippy what do you mean by "excessive calls, cluttering of the airwaves"? I can see that might happen at a busy airport or during arrivals at a fly in, but I have not encountered it at a "normal" airfield with say three aircraft in circuit. Then there is ample "uncluttered" time for everyone to make the calls needed so a fourth arrival knows where they all are.

[Garfly]

But I think Skippy is only arguing for the Goldilocks mean: not too much, not too little. Just-right for the given situation. 

Nothing proscribed. Makes sense.

 

 

 

Edited July 28 by Garfly

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

Note….. I had coffee yesterday with another pilot and tales of close conflict downwind due to lack of downwind call. I also heard that at some flying schools instructors have been berated for making downwind calls “unnecessarily”.

 

What was the typical number of aircraft in his circuits?

That makes a big difference. 

In city airfields there can be so many aircraft that even though everyone is clipping their calls there's a problem squeezing yours in.

At country fields there's often longer transmissions, asking questions etc which causes the same problem of not beiing able to get yours out.

 

Mandatory right circuits should have been loaded into the ERSA for that field.

 

Edited July 28 by turboplanner

[Garfly]

3 hours ago, Mike Gearon said:

Note….. I had coffee yesterday with another pilot and tales of close conflict downwind due to lack of downwind call. I also heard that at some flying schools instructors have been berated for making downwind calls “unnecessarily”. I think that’s at the crux of problems. If the instructor feels unable to make downwind calls it certainly isn’t going to be instilled in the students. 

Yes, neither proscription would be acceptable, at all, to Goldilocks.