Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

 

What was the typical number of aircraft in his circuits?

That makes a big difference. 

In city airfields there can be so many aircraft that even though everyone is clipping their calls there's a problem squeezing yours in.

At country fields there's often longer transmissions, asking questions etc which causes the same problem of not beiing able to get yours out.

 

Mandatory right circuits should have been loaded into the ERSA for that field.

 

I guess some airfields will have "typical number of aircraft in his circuit"  - in my limited experince there is no typical.

At our little field, can be on my own one day/time and another day/time x 6 ++. Anything from pilots desperate to get some air time, in a small weather window, to sudden influx of visitors.

 

Pilots should never fixate/become habituated to the typical/norm  - its a prescription for added stress at the worst panic.

 

"Mandatory right circuits should have been loaded into the ERSA for that field."

Dont know who you are addressing this to or why (apologies if I missed a post); Where no circuit direction stipulated, in ERSA, pilots will assume standard left turning.

[facthunter]

The preference is for STANDARD circuits to be left handed, . It became quite difficult to prescribe  RH circuits  about 20 years ago. If you want to observe the windsock etc over the Drome is the only way. The likelihood of descending onto other traffic is to be minimised. The turn onto final is historically the most dangerous.. extending the downwind leg is the best way to get more space from aircraft in front of you. Concentrating on the talk-talk can lead you to miss the Point of doing a SAFE circuit. IF you get too close on final have a place to go  that is safe. Be ahead of you plane. ALWAYS. I think the CASA made a shift in advice on radio calls that doesn't fit the 'prescribed " Format.. It's now a different CONCEPT,  IMHO more subtle to comprehend.. Nev

[Thruster88]

As per the statistics I posted previously, final approach is were the real danger is.

 

12/7/2024	OCC3751	Serpentine Aerodrome	WA	Jabiru	J160-C	Jabiru	2200B	OCCURRENCE DETAILS SUBMITTED TO RAAUS: The Jabiru 160 was on mid finals for runway 05, when a VH reg...
OCCURRENCE DETAILS SUBMITTED TO RAAUS: The Jabiru 160 was on mid finals for runway 05, when a VH registered Socata TB20 overtook them, directly above them. The VH registered Socata TB20 then continued to descend in front of the Jabiru 160. The instructor took immediate action by diving to the right however the difference in approach speed of the two aircraft meant that the VH registered Socata TB20 rapidly moved away from the Jabiru 160 aircraft. The instructor immediately radioed the pilot of the VH registered Socata TB20 aircraft.

[sfGnome]

One of the things I noticed while spending a few hours with an instructor getting my flying restarted (sadly, currently on hold while I recover from an operation on my dominant arm ☹️), was that I should spend more time on the turn to final looking for incoming traffic than the location of the airstrip. I’ve always been totally focused on lining up the airstrip at that point, but I can now see what he was talking about. It’s the other aircraft that you don’t know are there that are the major concern.

Edited July 31 by sfGnome

[BrendAn]

4 minutes ago, sfGnome said:

One of the things I noticed while spending a few hours with an instructor getting my flying restarted (sadly, currently on hold while I recover from an operation on my dominant arm ☹️), was that I should spend more time on the turn to final looking for incoming traffic than the location of the airstrip. I’ve always been totally focused on lining up the airstrip at that point, but I can now see what he was talking about. It’s the other aircraft that you don’t know are there that are the major concern.

It's part of raaus training. Look left,centre and right for other aircraft before making any turn in the circuit.

[onetrack]

But it's the one coming from above and behind, that you need to look out for, too! 

[pmccarthy]

Weaving and looking back over your shoulder.

[Thruster88]

37 minutes ago, onetrack said:

But it's the one coming from above and behind, that you need to look out for, too! 

Exactly. However neither aircraft was probably visible to the other once they were on final. One behind, one below the nose.

 

If either or both aircraft had adsb in and out a quick glance at a screen would have alerted them to the proximity.  We cannot rely on adsb, systems can fail, it is just a very good tool to have. 

 

Should we not look at the wind sock while in the circuit, it is after all another distraction from keeping a good look out. We can most often get the wind from AWIS before making the 10 mile call. Also helps to plan entry to the circuit. 

Edited July 31 by Thruster88

[BrendAn]

42 minutes ago, onetrack said:

But it's the one coming from above and behind, that you need to look out for, too! 

try looking out the back of my xair. i have mentioned this before. if i am flying a 500 ft circuit and a fast aircraft comes in behind me i am at their mercy.  i must admit though i only fly in fairly quiet locations and have not had any problems yet.  i am always listening and looking out for other aircraft, probably a bit parenoid being new to the flying thing.

[BrendAn]

15 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Exactly. However neither aircraft was probably visible to the other once they were on final. One behind, one below the nose.

 

If either or both aircraft had adsb in and out a quick glance at a screen would have alerted them to the proximity.  We cannot rely on adsb, systems can fail, it is just a very good tool to have. 

 

Should we not look at the wind sock while in the circuit, it is after all another distraction from keeping a good look out. We can most often get the wind from AWIS before making the 10 mile call. Also helps to plan entry to the circuit. 

if i made a ten mile call everyone else would have gone home by the time i reached the circuit. thats xcountry in an xair. 

[BrendAn]

i went for a fly with a mate in his c150 a few weeks ago. i was impressed with how easy it was to look behind with the big rear windows. i guess you low wing blokes get a great rear view too.

[facthunter]

You don't want to go past the extended runway centre line when turning final. You could see those ahead of you while on Base and should be looking for traffic on final on your right before you lose sight of them when Banking., When turning left BASE before you turn, clear for traffic on your left. This requires looking back behind you. Way back we would press left pedal and apply aileron to the right to keep the wings level and fly straight This helps you see behind you. Some people Poo poo this but it works for light aircraft as long as you are at the right speed to do it safely.  Nev

[Garfly]

A US perspective from a recent  Air Facts Journal:

 

 

What's wrong with the teardrop pattern entry : Air Facts Journal

AIRFACTSJOURNAL.COM

---

Having solved the impossible turn and other manufactured crises, the aviation training industry (or at least some YouTubers and keyboard warriors) has now turned its attention to the teardrop pattern entry...

 

[skippydiesel]

While radio failure (including wrong frequency) can always happen , good communication, removes most of the concerns about airborne conflict.

 

When approaching/in the pattern, if I hear a call but cant see the aircraft, I ask for more information.

 

If there are a number of aircraft, I like to say where I will be in the line up ("No 3 to the Foxbat turning down wind").

 

I have never tried to see another aircraft behind me. My cockpit does not facilitate this view. I trust the following aircraft to have me in sight, because I have given/received communication to that effect.  

[Garfly]

Yeah, good comms and a sharp lookout work pretty well most of the time. 

But in this episode of the Flying Reporter (UK) we see how hard it can be to get a good mental picture

of just who is where in a busy circuit, despite everyone's best efforts to talk, look and listen.

 

After all, just the term "downwind" can indicate a strip of air a mile long and half-a-mile wide.

Sure, getting on the blower can help narrow the search but, at the same time, we're trying to keep the chat down when it's busy.

 

Anyway, the relevant bit of the vid is  08:00 to 18:00:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8 by Garfly

[skippydiesel]

"................just the term "downwind" can indicate a strip of air a mile long and half-a-mile wide."

 

True ! but one ingredient,  missing altitude.

 

If you are at 1000 ft above terrain ie circuit height AND the other aircraft is at the same - spotting much easier.

 

 

[Garfly]

Agreed, Skippy, but that's sort of what I meant by 'strip'.  Maybe 'layer' would work better.

Edited October 8 by Garfly

[skippydiesel]

No worries Garfly - an important part of my addition to your comment was both the observing and observed aircraft being at circuit height.

You have probably noticed that if you are a bit high, prior to joining, its that much more difficult to see the other aircraft  in the circuit.

Same goes for the aircraft you are trying to see/find - if they are not where you expect them to be (high/low) just adds to the difficulty.

 

I am not sure that all pilots are aware of the importance of circuit discipline - not only should you make good calls but you should be where you are supposed/claiming to be.

[facthunter]

Giving an incorrect position is worse than giving none.   Nev

[Roundsounds]

On 8/10/2024 at 5:36 PM, skippydiesel said:

No worries Garfly - an important part of my addition to your comment was both the observing and observed aircraft being at circuit height.

You have probably noticed that if you are a bit high, prior to joining, its that much more difficult to see the other aircraft  in the circuit.

Same goes for the aircraft you are trying to see/find - if they are not where you expect them to be (high/low) just adds to the difficulty.

 

I am not sure that all pilots are aware of the importance of circuit discipline - not only should you make good calls but you should be where you are supposed/claiming to be.

Circuit height varies with aircraft performance, could be 1500’, 1000’ or 500’ AFE. 
 

Edited October 9 by Roundsounds

[skippydiesel]

I am aware of the possibility of doing a 500 ft circuit, never have.

 

I have never encountered a 1500 ft circuit - probably only in a controlled airspace.

 

The reality is that 1000ft is , for all intents & purposes, the circuit altitude - faster aircraft don't fly higher they fly wider.

[aro]

39 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

The reality is that 1000ft is , for all intents & purposes, the circuit altitude - faster aircraft don't fly higher they fly wider.

I have definitely encountered turboprop aircraft flying 1500' circuits. The occasional jet also visits, but I haven't been in the air at the time. I suspect they fly a straight in approach usually.

[kgwilson]

We have all 3 heights flown at our aerodrome, twins & turbos 1500, singles 1000 & gyros/trikes 500.

 

Faster heavier aircraft fly wider circuits but lighter aircraft flying the same or similar speeds can fly much tighter circuits. This is where good visual contact and clear concise radio calls are essential as the one flying a tighter circuit could end up in conflict with the one flying the wider circuit.

[F10]

I agree in this case, fully with Dan Gryder when he says force the other aircraft to talk to you...I was joining overhead at Latrobe one fine day, and after each call I heard an aircraft call, which sounded like he was in line astern formation with me....despite trying to twist around I could not see him. He of course gave no indication that he had seen me. I then asked directly, "(Callsign)...Have you got me visual?" Even when not an issue, I will often address an aircraft directly, forcing a reply or at least a double Tx click. My pet peeve, is people who make position reports blindly, giving no indication they have noted the other traffic, even when a conflict could exist. My other PET HATE.....is people who machine gun their radio calls at 3000 words a second. Do people think they sound uber cool if they rapid fire transmissions?

[Garfly]

 

3 hours ago, F10 said:

I agree in this case, fully with Dan Gryder when he says force the other aircraft to talk to you...I

 

Yeah, when it comes to that, this ATSB video on the Mangalore accident is worth another look:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWt57chwc8U