Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[BrendAn]

People that call every turn in a circuit give me the shits. They hog the radio. If your in the circuit everyone knows from when you join. A call turning base lats people know you are about to land full stop or touch and go on the same call. Taking off at our field we call entering then rolling runway after sitting at the threshold to look for traffic that may not have called or may have a radio fault. 

There are a couple of pilots that don't stop talking from when they get in the plane until they get out again. I honestly don't know how they can aviate when they non stop communicate.

[facthunter]

Raving ON is NOT communicating and it stops others getting a word in. We have a long way to go before this matter is practiced well enough to be effective... Turn the brain ON before  the mouth is in motion.. THINK about what you are going to SAY before you press the  transmit button.  KNOW the proper phrases to use and don't try to sound like you think Tom Cruze would..  Nervousness makes you perform poorly. Try  to get over that..  Nev

[BrendAn]

I noticed quote a bit of variation between instructors I have had. 

[facthunter]

 It's not helpful is it? but it can't be a 1,2,3, thing and that's often  what students too  often think things should be. There's NO single answer. Be situationally AWARE and tailor your (minimum and rehearsed) TALK to each situation. Like at a Controlled aerodrome you must get a Clearence to LAND but it doesn't GUARANTEE the runway is unoccupied. You still need your brain and your eyes. ANY DOUBT make it NO doubt if you can.. With SOME instructors you  GET THERE despite them not because of them and they do show you what YOU should not become like. .  Nev

[PureCaboose]

I went for a flight yesterday and mentally noted my calls as I approached the airfield.

1. Call at 10nm stating direction, altitude, time to field and intention to join the circuit.

2. Call 2 2nm after getting AWIS and deciding on the runway to use (I have 2/4 to choose from); advise midfield cross at circuit height to join downwind.

3. Call of turn to base for runway and intention to touch and go.

4. Call for go around due to wind sheer/gust

5. Call at turn to base for runway and intention to touch and go (again).

6. Call at the turn to base for the runway and intention for a full stop.

7. Call clear active runways and taxi via Alpha.

 

Unless some inter-pilot comms are required to slot into the circuit when busy (like a Sunday morning), it is usually the same when we need to accommodate some slower and much faster aircraft.

[skippydiesel]

2. ............................... advise midfield cross at circuit height to join downwind.

 

Hmmmm! Far from knowledgeable on these things, however not sure that  "midfield "  is a recognised term/joining procedure. Do you mean joining cross wind?😈

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Midfield crosswind joins are, in my opinion, the safest. You get to see the windsock and everyone knows exactly where you are coming from.

[BurnieM]

I think Skippy is referring to the term "midfield crosswind" rather than just "crosswind".

There was a previous discussion on this.

I am leaning towards "midfield crosswind" being more meaningful but it is not what is being taught.

 

Saying joining 'anything' without the runway is not helpful particuarly on light wind days.

At SHL we have 4 runways and 2 circuit directions on both.

 

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, BurnieM said:

I think Skippy is referring to the term "midfield crosswind" rather than just "crosswind".

There was a previous discussion on this.

I am leaning towards "midfield crosswind" being more meaningful but it is not what is being taught.

 

Saying joining 'anything' without the runway is not helpful particuarly on light wind days.

At SHL we have 4 runways and 2 circuit directions on both.

 

Same at our airfield. 9 , 5 and 14 right  hand. Other 3 are left.

[kgwilson]

At an uncontrolled airfield after the 10 mile call with height, intentions and ETA, you should always join overhead at 1500 for reasons stated in previous posts, unless the circuit direction is known from other traffic already there. Let down on the dead and join midfield crosswind. If there are other aircraft around that have failed to make themselves known, this is the safest place to cross the runway at 1000 as those aircraft will be either landing or taking off 1000 below you.

 

I mentioned in another post that some (many) instructors have poor radio technique and this is passed on to students. No-one has to get a FRTO licence these days. A mistake in my opinion.

 

Every airfield operator should ring CASA & get some copies of "Be Heard, Be Seen, Be Safe". They give them out free. I have given a copy to all aircraft owners and pilots at our airfield and surprisingly a lot of them were not aware of some of the procedures and protocols. They are now.

[skippydiesel]

12 hours ago, BurnieM said:

I think Skippy is referring to the term "midfield crosswind" rather than just "crosswind".

There was a previous discussion on this.

I am leaning towards "midfield crosswind" being more meaningful but it is not what is being taught.

 

Saying joining 'anything' without the runway is not helpful particuarly on light wind days.

At SHL we have 4 runways and 2 circuit directions on both.

 

Thanks Burnie - Yes its the use of the word "midfield". I am far from the most disciplined exponent of aviation communication but do recognise that standardised phrasing/words make for better understanding/ safer sky's.

 

"Saying joining 'anything' without the runway is not helpful particuarly on light wind days."  It seems to me, that most if not all minor airfields should have nominated (in ERSA) runway for light/nil wind conditions. While it is always the PIC's prerogative to nominate his/he landing direction, it would greatly reduce confusion (increase safety) if there was  a known/documented preferred runway.

[facthunter]

Regional RPT are probably one of the biggest offenders there. They tend to favour the runway that heads the way they are going. IF you are holding waiting on a taxiway make sure your brakes don't sink to the  floor and permit you to roll in front of them.  Nev

[Red]

On 18/06/2024 at 11:53 AM, BurnieM said:

I think Skippy is referring to the term "midfield crosswind" rather than just "crosswind".

There was a previous discussion on this.

I am leaning towards "midfield crosswind" being more meaningful but it is not what is being taught.

 

Saying joining 'anything' without the runway is not helpful particuarly on light wind days.

At SHL we have 4 runways and 2 circuit directions on both.

 

What does midfield mean in this context?, what is the distinction from simply saying joining Crosswind?.

taking literally it doesnt make a lot of sense to me.

Pardon my ignorance I've never heard the the Term

[Freizeitpilot]

 14 years ago on this forum…… 
 

 

[facthunter]

It's a logical extension of looking at the windsock and you are descending at the safest place to do so. Descending onto any circuit leg is risky as regards good vision of traffic below you.. Higher performance enplanes departing in the direction of the runway extended may also reach 1000 feet or more.  All this was discussed extensively at the time. Midfield crosswind is pretty specific. One thing wrong with it is lack of vision of someone Joining downwind at the same time. Both planes will be banking and can't see each other.  Nev

[pmccarthy]

Wow those old member names really took me back.

[Red]

11 hours ago, facthunter said:

Midfield crosswind is pretty specific.

I guess it's a local terminology thing, to me (a simple pom) its as clear as mud

so what does midfield crosswind mean that makes it different from just saying crosswind?..Im guessing it doesnt literally mean half way along the crosswind leg as that would be a daft place to enter the circuit

Enlightenment required

 

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Red said:

I guess it's a local terminology thing, to me (a simple pom) its as clear as mud

so what does midfield crosswind mean that makes it different from just saying crosswind?..Im guessing it doesnt literally mean half way along the crosswind leg as that would be a daft place to enter the circuit

Enlightenment required

 

I understand "joining X wind" to mean the pilot intends to join the circuit, crossing the airfield at a point between the up wind threshold & midfield. 

The objectives are,  for the joining aircraft to # not conflict with fast climbing aircraft climbing out, to be # in a known 3 dimensional position.

The use of the word "midfield" is redundant ie does not enhance awareness and just adds to the length of the transmission.

[pmccarthy]

Joining crosswind means joining at the point where an aircraft taking off would turn onto crosswind, say 0.5 to 1.0 km beyond the end of the runway. But it depends on aircraft performance, as to when they reach 500 feet for the turn.

 

Midfield crosswind means over the runway, toward the departure end. 

 

So they are two very different things. It is important to understand the difference when planning your join and also when looking out for joining aircraft.

[skippydiesel]

"Joining crosswind means joining at the point where an aircraft taking off would turn onto crosswind, say 0.5 to 1.0 km beyond the end of the runway"

 

I do not think you are correct - there is no joining point "beyond the end of the TO runway".

Joining, beyond the upwind threshold increase the chances of conflicting with climbing aircraft.

A X wind join is preferably over the upwind threshold but may be closer to midfield should the PIC decide to do so.

 

"Midfield crosswind means over the runway, toward the departure end. "

 

It may be that we are saying the same thing but the use of  the word "midfield" in the joining circuit context, is non standard ie not in the book of rules

 

Note the blue highlights & wording below

 

[RossK]

At YLIL, crosswind joins are over the depature end threshold. The ERSA entry for YLIL also states, "no Midfield Crosswind joins".

The meatbomber dropzone is on the dead side next to the middle of the aerodrome.

[skippydiesel]

1 minute ago, RossK said:

At YLIL, crosswind joins are over the depature end threshold. The ERSA entry for YLIL also states, "no Midfield Crosswind joins".

The meatbomber dropzone is on the dead side next to the middle of the aerodrome.

Interesting - I guess the airfield authorities wish to emphasis the need for pilots to avoid the midfield area - bit hard to do if they don't use the word midfield. 

 

To be clear, I am not suggesting that pilots should not join midfield (where allowed) but that they don't use the word midfield, as its not approved terminology, adds to the length/complexity of the transmission, for no improvement in clarity.

 

As I said earlier  joining X wind means the pilot will be transiting between the upwind threshold and midfield (preferably the latter), across to the downwind section of the circuit. The actual joining point will be aproximately midpoint  downwind, between the top of climb (Cross wind) out and the top of descent (Base) for most aircraft ie not midfield (which refers to the runway itself, as in airfield).

 

One more thing: As stated earlier I am far from an exponent/good example of aviation terminology - I am expressing my understanding of what should be uttered at this point in a pilots activity.

[facthunter]

It was approved and recommended at one stage. It provides extra ( helpful) information Like close base, Long final etc.. It's NOT waffling. I've never made a waffling transmission in my life as I was taught better.. In remote areas out of VHF range  (line of sight) we'd ask DC 6s etc if they would relay our messages cancel SAR etc. .   Nev

[turboplanner]

The requirements we fly under are Australian Regulations, so procedures in the US, UK, superseded circuit procedures, or dreamed up as a good idea or "what I do" don't apply.

The aim should be to minimise the number of different broadcasts rather than invent more.

 

Here's the link from "Be Heard, Be Seen, Be Safe"  document June 2023

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-05/radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf

 

Note that early in the piece it says: "Australian Non-controlled or Class Gis different to most parts of the world."

 

Calls ALL the time are on Page 4

Calls when there is other traffic are on Page 5

 

Regs involved are on Page 7

 

It's not a difficult read; it's only 7 pages long!

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm not inventing anything. Match your response to the situation. This has nothing to do with Clearances etc We also don't want people too afraid they will use a "Wrong word". Keep it simple. Keep it short.  .  Nev