turboplanner Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 13 minutes ago, facthunter said: I'm not inventing anything. Match your response to the situation. This has nothing to do with Clearances etc We also don't want people too afraid they will use a "Wrong word". Keep it simple. Keep it short. . Nev I didn’t quote you. You understand the whys. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 Crosswind is a location... it is leg flown by planes that have taken off and have turned to join downwind. It is not a safe place to join, as they may not see you coming! Midfield crosswind is further back - over the runway itself - and over the top of any aircraft taking off. Circuit procedures are given in non-controlled-aerodrome-circuit-procedures.pdf (casa.gov.au) Note that midfield crosswind is the ONLY crosswind join. The example broadcast from the CASA website is: Tyabb traffic, C172, ZTQ joining midfield crosswind, runway 17, Tyabb. see Radio use at CTAFs (when YMMB, YMAV and YMEN Towers are closed) | Civil Aviation Safety Authority (casa.gov.au) It isn't complicated! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 (edited) Descending onto another plane is an extreme hazard. Final is the most common place for it to happen. Descending on a midfield track assumes you get to circuit level by the time you get on the downwind leg. Till you level your wings you can't see any plane entering downwind directly. except in a tandem seated High wing or a single seat. the same. . Nev Edited June 21 by facthunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 The CASA circuit advice is to descend to circuit height on the dead side before you cross the runway at midfield crosswind. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 4 hours ago, turboplanner said: The requirements we fly under are Australian Regulations, so procedures in the US, UK, superseded circuit procedures, or dreamed up as a good idea or "what I do" don't apply. The aim should be to minimise the number of different broadcasts rather than invent more. Here's the link from "Be Heard, Be Seen, Be Safe" document June 2023 https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-05/radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf Note that early in the piece it says: "Australian Non-controlled or Class Gis different to most parts of the world." Calls ALL the time are on Page 4 Calls when there is other traffic are on Page 5 Regs involved are on Page 7 It's not a difficult read; it's only 7 pages long! It still surprises me that radio calls are optional not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace. Anyone can drop into an airfield with no communication at all. While it may be the wrong thing to do it is legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 4 hours ago, pmccarthy said: Crosswind is a location... it is leg flown by planes that have taken off and have turned to join downwind. It is not a safe place to join, as they may not see you coming! Midfield crosswind is further back - over the runway itself - and over the top of any aircraft taking off. Circuit procedures are given in non-controlled-aerodrome-circuit-procedures.pdf (casa.gov.au) Note that midfield crosswind is the ONLY crosswind join. The example broadcast from the CASA website is: Tyabb traffic, C172, ZTQ joining midfield crosswind, runway 17, Tyabb. see Radio use at CTAFs (when YMMB, YMAV and YMEN Towers are closed) | Civil Aviation Safety Authority (casa.gov.au) It isn't complicated! Ah thanks we call that an overhead join and its commonly used here in uncontrolled and controlled aerodromes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 21 minutes ago, BrendAn said: It still surprises me that radio calls are optional not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace. Anyone can drop into an airfield with no communication at all. While it may be the wrong thing to do it is legal. The link I posted doesn't say you can drop into an airfield with no communication at all. It provides some benchmarks. If someone sues you for negligence after a collision, a defence could be that you were complying with the industry benchmark at the time. (It's the reverse of the old prescriptive system where you had to comply with someone else's rule or get fined). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 8 minutes ago, turboplanner said: The link I posted doesn't say you can drop into an airfield with no communication at all. It provides some benchmarks. If someone sues you for negligence after a collision, a defence could be that you were complying with the industry benchmark at the time. (It's the reverse of the old prescriptive system where you had to comply with someone else's rule or get fined). I never looked at your link, I was just saying how radio calls are not mandatory at uncontrolled airfields. I was surprised when I learnt that a while back that's all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 Radios are not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace so calls can not be mandatory either. It is up to the aerodrome operator to determine if radios must be carried and used within their 10 mile radius CTAF and published in ERSA. This is the case at South Grafton. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 (edited) 19 minutes ago, turboplanner said: The link I posted doesn't say you can drop into an airfield with no communication at all. It provides some benchmarks. If someone sues you for negligence after a collision, a defence could be that you were complying with the industry benchmark at the time. (It's the reverse of the old prescriptive system where you had to comply with someone else's rule or get fined). Do you have to come out with some crap about getting sued in every conversation. You can make a point without that surely. Edited June 21 by BrendAn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 3 minutes ago, kgwilson said: Radios are not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace so calls can not be mandatory either. It is up to the aerodrome operator to determine if radios must be carried and used within their 10 mile radius CTAF and published in ERSA. This is the case at South Grafton. This is what confuses me. I always thought circuit procedures and radio calls would be set in stone not mandatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 IF you're 1/2 smart you will use everything that makes it safer for you, provided you still use your Mk1 Eyeballs in case someone else is a complete Dickhead. " But I HAD a clearance" won't count much posthumously.. Nev 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 (edited) 4 hours ago, pmccarthy said: Crosswind is a location... it is leg flown by planes that have taken off and have turned to join downwind. It is not a safe place to join, as they may not see you coming! Cross wind in this context (joining the circuit) is a direction not a location - simply put its flying across the wind/active runway prior to joining. The only other X wind is on climbout again a direction. 4 hours ago, pmccarthy said: Midfield crosswind is further back - over the runway itself - and over the top of any aircraft taking off. To be precise its between the centre of the runway and the upwind (departing) threshold - no aircraft should be climbing anywhere near circuit height between these two points and no aircraft should be descending below circuit height Circuit procedures are given in non-controlled-aerodrome-circuit-procedures.pdf (casa.gov.au) Note that midfield crosswind is the ONLY crosswind join. The example broadcast from the CASA website is: Tyabb traffic, C172, ZTQ joining midfield crosswind, runway 17, Tyabb. see Radio use at CTAFs (when YMMB, YMAV and YMEN Towers are closed) | Civil Aviation Safety Authority (casa.gov.au) It isn't complicated! Thanks for that reference pmccarthy - it appears I am mistaken about the use of the word "midfield" - my apologies. There does seem to be a bit of official confusion on this point - the circuit joining/landing diagram just refers to joining cross wind and shows the aircraft joining at the approximate midfield point on the downwind leg.. As midfield is the recommended joining point, it still seems to me that using the word "midfield" is redundant - I almost always used the phrase "Sonex #### joining X wind from the dead side" and have never used the word "midfield" as listening pilots will know at what point I will join and turn down wind (midfield). Edited June 21 by skippydiesel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 I might try one from the WILD side and see what results I get. where did you get "dead side' from ? Nev. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 1 hour ago, BrendAn said: Do you have to come out with some crap about getting sued in every conversation. You can make a point without that surely. No I don't really; I've recommended all PICs sit down with a PL lawyer and find out for themselves for not much more than an hour's flying cost, and it's interesting to see that most in business and mining are aware and don't pose these crazy questions, but plenty haven't done anything about updating themselves. It doesn't seem to dawn on people what the reason is for CASA/Airservices etc withdrawing a very workable prescriptive rule system that was used in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 1 hour ago, BrendAn said: I never looked at your link, I was just saying how radio calls are not mandatory at uncontrolled airfields. I was surprised when I learnt that a while back that's all.. If you are flying you should have looked at that link very early in training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 A Question. I think I was taught many years ago when I got a PPL that all turns above the circuit (over flying) were to the left. If joining crosswind to a RIGHT hand circuit like we now have at Cowra on 15 would this not make the mid field the only option. Perhaps this is why pilots should spell it out. Skippy saying you are joining cross wind FROM THE DEAD SIDE is just cluttering the air waves, is there another way to join cross wind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 57 minutes ago, turboplanner said: If you are flying you should have looked at that link very early in training. As usual you are insinuating I don't fly.Well I do fly and I have not seen that link in the raaus syllabus. We do a radio section and practice radio communication. Have you ever been a member of raaus or flown ultralight aircraft. How long is it since you actually flew yourself. It was last week for me and hopefully another 4 hours this weekend. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, facthunter said: I might try one from the WILD side and see what results I get. where did you get "dead side' from ? Nev. No idea about the terms usage in OZ but its a common term in UK and refers to the opposite side of the runway to the active circuit (pattern), when doing an Overhead join the next call after "overhead" is "descending deadside" UK Version https://www.caa.co.uk/publication/download/13138 NZ Terminology https://www.asms.co.nz/2014/01/caa-releases-asms-report.html Perhaps I should leave this discussion as its plainly in the context of Australian procedures? Edited June 21 by Red 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 12 minutes ago, BrendAn said: As usual you are insinuating I don't fly.Well I do fly and I have not seen that link in the raaus syllabus. We do a radio section and practice radio communication. Have you ever been a member of raaus or flown ultralight aircraft. How long is it since you actually flew yourself. It was last week for me and hopefully another 4 hours this weekend. OK then if "anyone" is flying "they" should have looked at that link very early in training. In fact "they" should be up to speed with that document before first solo. "Someone" might train in RAA, but "they" also fly in Airservices and CASA airspace and have to be up tp speed with their requirements also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 1 minute ago, turboplanner said: "Someone" might train in RAA, but "they" also fly in Airservices and CASA airspace and have to be up tp speed with their requirements also. There is only one airspace. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 Just now, turboplanner said: OK then if "anyone" is flying "they" should have looked at that link very early in training. In fact "they" should be up to speed with that document before first solo. "Someone" might train in RAA, but "they" also fly in Airservices and CASA airspace and have to be up tp speed with their requirements also. I think that is the difference. You quote casa and I only know what I am taught in raaus. You refer a lot to controlled airspace such as Moorabbin. Somewhere my training doesn't allow me to fly. If I continue to RPL which I have started then I will no doubt see a lot more of what you are referring too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 14 minutes ago, Red said: No idea about the terms usage in OZ but its a common term in UK and refers to the opposite side of the runway to the active circuit (pattern), when doing an Overhead join the next call after "overhead" is "descending deadside" UK Version https://www.caa.co.uk/publication/download/13138 NZ Terminology https://www.asms.co.nz/2014/01/caa-releases-asms-report.html Perhaps I should leave this discussion as its plainly in the context of Australian procedures? I thought procedures were the same worldwide, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 2 minutes ago, BrendAn said: I think that is the difference. You quote casa and I only know what I am taught in raaus. You refer a lot to controlled airspace such as Moorabbin. Somewhere my training doesn't allow me to fly. If I continue to RPL which I have started then I will no doubt see a lot more of what you are referring too. Your RAAus training should, would, hopefully, have taught the various airspace types and the requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Thruster88 said: Your RAAus training should, would, hopefully, have taught the various airspace types and the requirements. Certainly did but I admit I don't give much thought to anywhere but my local area at the moment. Although we are smack in the middle of military airspace here so grounded when RAAF are flying. and also oil rig helicopter transit areas too. Oz runways is a great tool too. Edited June 21 by BrendAn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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