Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[jackc]

The more I read this thread, seems lots of differing interpretations making me feel safer  paddock jumping in a FAA Part 103 aircraft and staying well away from any airfields/airports etc. Not over 400 feet, just dodging the odd Drone. 🤩🤩

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Thruster88 said:

A Question. I think I was taught many years ago when I got a PPL that all turns above the circuit (over flying)  were to the left. If joining crosswind to a RIGHT hand circuit like we now have at Cowra on 15 would this not make the mid field the only option. Perhaps this is why pilots should spell it out.

 

Skippy saying you are joining cross wind FROM THE DEAD SIDE is just cluttering the air waves, is there another way to join cross wind?

The landing direction, therefore the circuit direction, is decided by the PIC ie there is nothing in the rulebook that says you can not land down wind. This is even more so in light/nil wind. By announcing the approach direction & the joining choice, all pilots in the vicinity will know where to look (find me) and what to expect.

 

The Oaks airfield has a conventional (left hand) circuit for 36 and a right hand circuit for 18  ie there is no circuit over the nearby township of The Oaks (it's always DEAD/not active) . By announcing "From The Dead Side" I am informing the listening pilot(s) that that is the direction I will be coming from and intending to "Join Cross Wind" -  I will be overflying the departure /upwind  end of 18 or 36 , to turn midfield, on Down Wind,  whichever is the active (or pilot selected) landing direction. There is no ambiguity.

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

The more I read this thread, seems lots of differing interpretations making me feel safer  paddock jumping in a FAA Part 103 aircraft and staying well away from any airfields/airports etc. Not over 400 feet, just dodging the odd Drone. 🤩🤩

I agree. I started off with plans of flying everywhere but have realised I enjoy just flying around my local area away from busy traffic a controlled areas.  Always have a farm under me. In an xair that means a landing spot wherever I go. Same as your thruster . When I do the rpl I might look further but I like things kept simple. It's for pleasure after all.

[skippydiesel]

10 minutes ago, jackc said:

The more I read this thread, seems lots of differing interpretations making me feel safer  paddock jumping in a FAA Part 103 aircraft and staying well away from any airfields/airports etc. Not over 400 feet, just dodging the odd Drone. 🤩🤩

It's not as bad as these vested opinions(including mine) might seem.

For the most part pilots are keen to feel that they have communicated their position (in space) and their immediate intentions. That they may not have been absolutely correct in their phrasing /terminology is a secondary (not unimportant) consideraton.

 

For my part I believe courtesy is vital -

A pilot should not go against the established circuit pattern, without very good reason

Should be only so brief in transmitting, so as to establish an accurate understanding in the receiver(s)

Should, only if needed, seek clarification (Say Again) in a neutral tone

Should not, while in the air, belabour any point of air etiquette IF sufficiently informed of the other pilots position/ intention and that no conflict need exist.

Be willing to "make room" for the inexperienced or stranger, even if this means Going Round or flying an extra wide pattern, etc

Should inform the transmitting pilot that their radio has a problem (transmission is weak/noise/broken/etc) thus alerting them to a possible communication issue 

😈

[Red]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

I thought procedures were the same worldwide, 

Mostly, but not necessarily using the same terminology as this thread illustrates.

Also there are some glaring differences such as in the USA where a 45 degree join to one of the corners on a rectangle formed by the circuit (pattern) is a widely used standard and I believe Overhead joins are seldom used of even understood.

[Red]

3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

 

As midfield is the recommended joining point, it still seems to me that using the word "midfield" is redundant - I almost always used the phrase "Sonex #### joining X wind from the dead side"  and have never used the word "midfield" as listening pilots will know at what point I will join and turn down wind (midfield).

 

 

 

Though not used much except whilst training in the circuit or when a situation demands (eg you just heard someone call joining downwind)  then a call of crosswind can indicate someone who just made the first turn into the circuit after climbing out..room for confusion there

[kgwilson]

When I trained for my PPL back in NZ in the 80s the uncontrolled procedure was the same there as it is now. I learned that the "Non Traffic side" is called the "Dead side" here and joining crosswind was pretty much above the takeoff threshold, where as "midfield crosswind" is the procedure I have adopted here. 

[skippydiesel]

58 minutes ago, Red said:

 Overhead joins are seldom used of even understood.

What is an "Overhead join" ?

I routinely call "Overhead The Field xxxxft" followed by whatever circuit joining information as  previously stated.

 

As as far as I understand, to be overhead the field means that you are at least 500 ft preferably more, over circuit height. You can only join the circuit once established at circuit height.

 

[Red]

I was clearly saying they don't use it in the USA Skippy

[Bosi72]

AIP ENR 1.1-65  para 9.12.3  "joining overhead"

 

AIP ENR 1.1-57 para 9.1.14 "radio calls"

 

ERSA for specific aerodrome procedure

 

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/aip.asp?pg=20&vdate=13JUN2024&ver=1

 

Edited June 21 by Bosi72

[skippydiesel]

11 hours ago, Red said:

 

..................then a call of crosswind can indicate someone who just made the first turn into the circuit after climbing out........................

Hmmm! I have no recollection of hearing or making a X wind call on climb out - this would certainly cause confusion if happened in a busy circuit.

[facthunter]

If  you're in say a 100 pax jet, you really don't want to be roaring around various legs of a circuit. with little slower planes  In the early stages of these Feeder Ops the Straight in  was resisted by pilot groups in the bigger stuff but with experience  and a lot of discussion. It changed to Prefer the straight in. The trouble is in wanting to save time and keep to schedule they ,may land and take off with a fair downwind to expedite their Ops. This HAS to be more risky for obvious reasons.  but they just want to get in and out as quickly as they can.. RPT cockpits don't have the best vision in the Game. Something to think about if you're going to such places.  Nev

[kgwilson]

11 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

What is an "Overhead join" ?

 

Joining overhead  or overhead join/re-join has been a commonly known and documented procedure since I first flew in the mid 1970s

[facthunter]

More likely to be useful when you are going to an unfamiliar place. .  Don't forget the bigger stuff uses the racecourse pattern mostly and don't really fly conventional circuits  en route very often.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

Joining overhead  or overhead join/re-join has been a commonly known and documented procedure since I first flew in the mid 1970s

You live and learn - still don't see how you can" join overhead" from 500ft plus over the circuit height. I do an overhead call for almost every airfield I land at but its a position call, followed by "joining X wind for runway ?????"

[aro]

20 odd years ago when I was training, the procedure was to join crosswind over the departure end of the runway. This has the advantage that if one aircraft joins for 18 and another for 36, they are separated and have time to figure things out before there is a risk of collision.

 

For whatever reason, CASA decided to modify the procedures so you joined midfield (or maybe 2/3 of the way down the runway?) I don't remember whether it was a specific recommendation, but people started referring to "joining midfield crosswind" because it was in a different place to the previous "joining crosswind".

 

I'm pretty sure the overhead join is just another name for what Australia calls midfield crosswind... because you join overhead the field, rather than on downwind etc.

[facthunter]

There's a crosswind leg and a midfield process which includes a descent to circuit height  by the time you are on downwind leg. I can't see why you'd want to risk confusing the two. To do the minimum sized  circuit you'd climb on the runway extended line to 500FT and then continue the Climb 1000 ft agl to turn downwind at the distance from the runway that suites you.   Nev

[aro]

25 minutes ago, facthunter said:

a midfield process which includes a descent to circuit height  by the time you are on downwind leg.

Not in the last 20 years at least... 

You are supposed to descend on the dead side (or non-active side if you prefer) and be at circuit height before you cross the runway and join the circuit.

 

Descending into traffic on the downwind leg is a no-no. Among other things, it is much easier to see the traffic you are supposed to avoid if you are not above them.

[facthunter]

Don't agree. How do you get a look at the windsock and the general layout IF you don't have a look from a safe heigh clear of other circuit traffic.?

[aro]

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

How do you get a look at the windsock and the general layout IF you don't have a look from a safe heigh clear of other circuit traffic.?

Overfly at 1500 AGL (or 2000 AGL if there might be high speed traffic doing 1500' circuits.)

Check the windsock, determine which runway to use.

Descend to circuit height on the dead (i.e. non-active) side.

Join the circuit at circuit height.

 

This is pretty basic stuff - anyone post area-solo stage should know it.

[facthunter]

I've done a lot off Flying  in general and instructed in GA and AUF/RAA  I have NO idea what you have been taught but you suggestion is more clumsy, imprecise and entails more time in the circuit.  Nev

[aro]

9 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I've done a lot off Flying  in general and instructed in GA and AUF/RAA

How long ago?

 

This procedure is exactly what is depicted in the diagram from CASA in a previous post. It is what has been taught for decades. It doesn't seem clumsy to me... what does seem clumsy is pilots who are in the circuit, but not yet at circuit height and are descending into circuit traffic.

[facthunter]

You don't seem to be able to  think this out in your head. The quickest  and most simple move from overhead is  to descend  midfield and reach circuit height  before the downwind leg IF you can't do that go  enough distance to DO the descent where it's safe. Dead side or even a bit further depending on the amount of traffic. That will take extra time and manoeuvring than you would doing it the way I suggest. This way of entering the circuit is not the Most common way as I've explained. If you have good radio communication  for example and the aerodrome is familiar to you. Nev

[aro]

I can think it through, but the rules say different. Here it is straight from AIP:

 

 

 

 

 

Pilots should not descend into the traffic circuit from directly above the aerodrome...

 

... the aircraft  should descend on the non-active side of the circuit and be established at circuit altitude as it crosses the runway centreline on crosswind

 

[facthunter]

It uses the word "Should" Not MUST. Please take note. ALL the points you have brought up I have also Assess the situation Don't just fixate on a few words. as if complying with them is the ONLY way and is always the answer.. An over riding consideration in this game is to conduct your flight in the safest manner possible. THAT'S been the rule for a long time and I can't see it EVER changing. It's fundamental and over rides all others. That's a pretty recent AIP also. 3 months old. I'm not new to these things.  I've worked with the AFAP and CASA to write some of them.  Nev

Edited June 22 by facthunter