Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[kgwilson]

4 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

You live and learn - still don't see how you can" join overhead" from 500ft plus over the circuit height. I do an overhead call for almost every airfield I land at but its a position call, followed by "joining X wind for runway ?????"

The term Overhead join refers to the whole process. Call flying overhead at 500" above circuit height check for wind direction, traffic, obstacles etc, descend to the non active side and then call joining crosswind so you are correct. It is just semantics

[facthunter]

The thing IS that you don't need to do this Overhead thing very often. I can't recall using the term OVERHEAD ever when flying... Nev

[kgwilson]

So when arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome how do you determine the wind direction and runway to use if you do not hear any other radio transmissions? Arriving 500 feet above the circuit height allows you to check these plus other things like objects & animals, runway closed cross etc. yesterday I'd been away, flew overhead and noticed 2 large black objects on the runway. They were cows that had escaped from the neighbours farm. There was no other traffic so I buzzed them & they took off.

[Blueadventures]

38 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The thing IS that you don't need to do this Overhead thing very often. I can't recall using the term OVERHEAD ever when flying... Nev

Some over fly airfields on a route, (bit like playing baseball where you touch each base).  No need to over fly; just fly say 5 miles off that way your not congesting the air space in the close vicinity to the airfield.

[facthunter]

10 Miles is better from an active aerodrome IF there's no good reason  to be any closer..  . On some routes traffic climbing and descending are a Hazzard best avoided.  There may also be traffic in other directions  to be watched but the denser traffic is higher risk.. all stations (place area)   ABC,(type  optional) 10 miles east  at 6000 abeam (place)at (time) tracking for XYZ..  Nev

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

Some over fly airfields on a route, (bit like playing baseball where you touch each base).  No need to over fly; just fly say 5 miles off that way your not congesting the air space in the close vicinity to the airfield.

Depends on, amongst other things the transit height and traffic associated with the airfield.

 

When on a trip, for the most part,  I fly the shortest distance, at the altitude for best time & minimal fuel consumption.

 

If I am at , say 7500 ft, most airfields & their circuit, are so far below me that any aircraft in/out bond aircraft in the circuit, are also safely well below - safe to over fly  the airfield.

 

If I was at 3500 ft, a detour might be the safest decision - 10 Nm would be appropriate. However if radio traffic is very light/non existent,  I may elect to fly closer or even overhead the field.

 

No matter the altitude or the radio traffic, I would still do the 10 Nm call, with estimated time overhead/abeam the field. I would call again when reaching my intended position, relative to the airfield.

 

The above lets pilots and ground radio monitoring, know where I am, what my intentions are and when I am leaving their vicinity. It also provides me with a bit of a safety net in the event of some misfortune to me & my aircraft - when/where was my last transmission, was I on planed track/altitude. 

[Red]

On 22/06/2024 at 7:30 AM, Blueadventures said:

Some over fly airfields on a route, (bit like playing baseball where you touch each base).  No need to over fly; just fly say 5 miles off that way your not congesting the air space in the close vicinity to the airfield.

It really depends, if your track is 90 degrees to an airfields Runway then flying directly overhead at an appropriate altitude is far safer than offsetting some miles away where the likelihood of encountering descending traffic becomes a factor.

As Nev alluded to, constraining yourself to a single mantra that works for one set of circumstances is never optimal.

[skippydiesel]

27 minutes ago, Red said:

It really depends, if your track is 90 degrees to an airfields Runway then flying directly overhead at an appropriate altitude is far safer than offsetting some miles away where the likelihood of encountering descending traffic becomes a factor.

As Nev alluded to, constraining yourself to a single mantra that works for one set of circumstances is never optimal.

Descending/Ascending traffic can come from any point of the compass, relative to an airfield. 

 

Communication and the eyeball are you best defence against a collision with another aircraft.

 

Pilots operate in a dynamic environment,  who in their right mind would  "constraining yourself to a single mantra that works for one set of circumstances"   ?                                    

 

 

[Red]

There are comments here that imply just that...that this the best way..period.

 

 

Quote

Descending/Ascending traffic can come from any point of the compass, relative to an airfield. 

Good point, but at a safe altitude I would still go directly overhead in some circumstances, 5 miles out is almost in the circuit at many fields...its always dependent on factors such as what traffic reports I've heard, knowledge of local procedures, visibility etc blah blah

[skippydiesel]

"There are comments here that imply just that...that this the best way..period."

 

The implications are but your interpretation ie may not be the writers intent. 

 

[Mike Gearon]

I’ve had some interesting conversations last few days.

 

Called into Moorabin in search of Mr Turbo. I visited the wrong place. However, at that place I learned that the instruction they teach is when they visit CTAf circuits they are calling base and final. I was surprised to find that CASA don’t want downwind calls. This of course isn’t the case. It just shows how much confusion is out there. Not only amongst the students being taught but amongst instructors as well.

 

I spent time today with a senior instructor elsewhere who is a staunch defender of minimal radio calls and base only in circuits. 
 

I had two main questions.

 

1. Why are you so adamant that minimal calls is best?

 

I did get a good answer to this. Radio calls are fatiguing. I guess we all recall the early days and even a simple radio call was just too much on top of all the other things going on to aviate and navigate as a new student pilot. I think it’s gone too far though when minimal calls ends up being no calls at all if other aircraft aren’t around. To me this is like reducing checklists because we know it all. Making at least a single call in circuit and on exiting the runway in use at a CTAF does a couple of things. First, it helps keep us regimented to make the call and not gradually drop the calls when they should be used. Especially for new pilots.  Second it allows aircraft that are still beyond the 10nm range to ascertain both the runway in use and the fact that there is at least one aircraft circulating at that airport. I’ve been surprised at a local airport a number of times making my inbound and join call only to find a school plane in the circuit. That, I think is the result or consequence of not making calls because no one is around and not then bringing them back in. As mentioned, like checklists they need to be kept up.

 

2. Why are so against making the downwind call if only one call is to be made in circuits?

 

Again, as with the previous question I did get a good answer. Downwind various aircraft will be making that call at different positions. Base is a more certain position. Pilots should have situational awareness and a base call should allow you to work out where aircraft are in the circuit. 
 

I mentioned a recent experience where I was coming into an airport and heard a single aircraft calling their base stop and go. On descent and entry to circuit I was scanning for the aircraft and didn’t see one. I then decided they’d made the stop and go a stop and maintained a good lookout regardless. I was very surprised on downwind and closer than I’d have liked to find that aircraft turning base and announcing another stop and go. I wish they’d called their downwind. They certainly knew I was inbound. White aircraft with white clouds aren’t exactly easy to see. It was this occurrence that prompted my opening the thread on topic.

 

While I understand downwind can be at different positions for different aircraft a number of them are going to school circuit 172’s. A portion will be pilots staying current/ proficient. We do know where they will be. It will in my opinion be a rarity to have a downwind call from somewhere surprising.

 

To conclude. CASA have with the best of intentions recommended minimal radio calls and no specific in circuit mandatory call. The result can’t be what they expected where Australian flight schools are teaching different call methods and confusing both student pilots and experienced pilots encountering them.
 

Calling base as a single circuit call is really asking for trouble. I’m surprised there aren’t more reported incidents or accidents. It seems so basic that downwind calls alert other joining aircraft. Base calls are worse than useless. They haven’t alerted the crosswind, downwind or oblique downwind joining aircraft. The base join aircraft is in even more trouble. They could end up very close together. The straight in pilot hearing a downwind call has the whole downwind leg of the circuit aircraft to ascertain if they should break off their straight in approach. A base call is cutting it a bit fine. 

 

 

 

 

[jackc]

Hint…..stay away from airports ✌️

[pmccarthy]

Agreed. I call downwind, base, final. Even if there are five aircraft in the circuit there is tons of time for all of them to make these calls. And if one can't make one call because of another call, no big deal, at least we are getting as much info as we can.

[jackc]

Sounds very logical to me…

[skippydiesel]

I make a minimum of three calls.

 

If there does not seem to be any other aircraft (no transmissions) in or approaching the circuit, it's just the three.

If I am aware of other aircraft, I will make calls according to circumstance - I don't have a rule beyond the minimum. When there are many aircraft I may make additional calls, to ensure other pilots have "found"  my aircraft.

 

Joining the Circuit; Overhead The Field /thousand ft descending on the Dead Side, Joining X wind for runway??,  (Established Downwind Runway?? T&G number two to Foxbat????), Turning or Established On Base for Runway ?? T&G). ( Optional). I would only call on Final if I felt there was a point in doing so eg an aircraft /vehicle on the runway.

 

Departing; Taxi for ?? Runup Bay (Backtracking Runway??) Entering & Lining up Runway?? One POB, Departing Upwind for airwork to north of field. , Rolling (Additional calls  on Climb Out if circuit bussy) 

[Thruster88]

I hate the circuit and the one above called over flying. Flying at the farm in a thruster is bliss. In the ctaf always make the calls, listen and hope for the best. Traffic on the screen is a bonus. Good luck everyone. 

[Mike Gearon]

Well, I’m also a partial convert to the highly experienced instructor I talked with yesterday. Less calls.
 

Making all 3 calls can jam up the radio. Especially when it’s busy. I believe the original CASA change was brought about by one or more incidents where less calls would have reduced the risk of collision.

 

Another thing that particular  instructor brought up yesterday was aircraft naming and it really doesn’t need to be in every call. It’s for situational awareness of performance. We know a 172, warrior etc will be around 100kn downwind. We hope an RV has slowed to a reasonable circuit speed from their 160-180kn descending approach. We will notice  a warbird calling because it’s likely to be fast and wide. We got that on their first call.
 

Based on that instructors influence I’ve started to reduce calls and didn’t call exiting runway last week for the first time in my 5 flying years. (No other aircraft in vicinity or on radio at the time) That felt terribly wrong. I then reduced it to “TUP clear 22” so I’d at least maintain the habit. 
 

Another couple of topics from yesterday.

 

1. High speed aircraft entering the circuit.
 

We aren’t taught how to do this as new pilots or in my experience in transition training. We should be. I’ve gone from 110 to 140 to 180kn capable circuit joiners. Max CASA speed of 150kn to join the circuit (1000ft AGL)is still fast with circulating 172’s. See and avoid is much better for everyone if the joining aircraft is slowed to some 100-120kn. My point here is we aren’t taught that and even though it appears to be commonsense I don’t think it is. It’s not like a car where you’re doing 150kph and notice the other cars are at 100kph and maybe you have it wrong. There’s no reference between your aircraft and others near circuit area  beyond your ASI. 
 

2. ADSB in and out.

 

Again, related to school aircraft and circuit aircraft. A surprising number of schools don’t have ADSB in or out. There are various arguements here related to staring at the screen or unnecessary traffic alerts.

 

My belief is that schools should be mandated to have ADSB out and I suggest they have a sky echo as minimum for ADSB in. This then teaches students about a valuable adjunct to situational awareness. Teach them not to stare at the screen. Perhaps in circuit they can glance at ADSB for a second or two in their 6 minute circuit to add to their situational awareness of incoming aircraft. I believe in my own case it would have had solo student pilots more likely to announce their downwind if they’d both heard my incoming call and glanced at their smart phones ADSB in. They are also obviously taught aircraft may not have ADSB out. All part of building their picture of situational awareness. All part of helping them toward their future solo flights and being set free. I think my first cross country flight would have benefited from ADSB in and the additional navigational backup aid of a smart phone.
 

There is a local event in a few weeks with a CASA representative present. I hope to have a discussion with them on this topic and see if there are any changes in the wind or if there is any available method to influence change.

[skippydiesel]

"Making all 3 calls can jam up the radio. Especially when it’s busy. I believe the original CASA change was brought about by one or more incidents where less calls would have reduced the risk of collision."

 

No offence Mike  - the above is bovine excrement. Look at the calls that I make - by doing these, any non transmitting aircraft will hear me and know my location & intention. My calls enhance safety. There is a world of difference between making a small number of courtesy/just in case there is someone out there, calls and blocking the airwaves with unnecessary verbiage.

 

"Another thing that particular  instructor brought up yesterday was aircraft naming and it really doesn’t need to be in every call..... "

 

Personally, I hear/register the type of aircraft far more readily than the registration - Rylstone Traffic Cessna KZS joining X wind for Runway XXX  - Cessna is what makes an impression on me - if needed, I can call back immediately Cessna Rylstone..... and make the connection . Of course if here are multiple Cessnas in/entering the circuit, I have to step up to the mark and use the rego (KZS) to differentiate.

 

Being able to identify the more common aircraft aids in location eg  calling you will be number two to an RV, places you in the circuit que for all other circuit aircraft. 

 

"......It’s for situational awareness of performance. We know a 172, warrior etc will be around 100kn downwind. We hope an RV has slowed to a reasonable circuit speed from their 160-180kn descending approach. We will notice  a warbird calling because it’s likely to be fast and wide. We got that on their first call."

 

Since when is a pilot supposed to have an understanding of other aircrafts performance characteristics?  How does this assist safety? It's the flying pilots job, to fly the circuit suitable to his/her aircraft.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Skippy you are making at least two unnecessary calls once you have joined the circuit, which clutters the air waves and therefore you could miss and hinder another call or priority call that you may need to hear.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Blueadventures said:

Skippy you are making at least two unnecessary calls once you have joined the circuit, which clutters the air waves and therefore you could miss and hinder another call or priority call that you may need to hear.

How is - Overhead, Joining, Base -  to many calls??? The rest, that I mentioned, are optional( thats why they are in brackets)- depending on conditions (traffic/confusion).

 

I said minimum three calls for TO/Landing. There is no possible way that this "clutters" the airwaves. Bear in mind that my calls are spaced by many minutes of silence. My communication model is as for a controlled airfield - I don't employ all the (many) calls, just what I feel will keep me and any other aircraft safe.

 

How is another aircraft supposed to know, where you are (location) and what your intentions may be, if a few calls are not made??? None & one is clearly insufficient.

Edited June 26 by skippydiesel

[Mike Gearon]

Well, you can discuss all you like. CASA have decided what’s the correct procedure. Less calls. 
 

I had an interesting interplay today between ADSB and radio situational awareness.

 

Northerly wind and I heard the departing aircraft make a downwind departure call from 36. That would you’d think have them departing generally south. More or less 180 and climbing out. I decided I’d still like to give them a bit of space and changed from a planned base entry to 36 to a downwind entry. 
 

I then hear Melbourne center telling the departing aircraft we are tracking at each other. I’m still heading generally north west. Immediately I turned directly north and checked my ADSB in. Sure enough the other aircraft had been directly ahead tracking south east.
 

On the way inbound with windy conditions I was aware there were no GA flights. Or at least none on ADSB in or radio. When the departing aircraft called their downwind departure I was totally focused on radio situational awareness and giving space to the departing aircraft. Never entered my head they could be calling one thing and doing something else. Conclusion. Spend the .5 seconds to glance at ADSB in even if they aircraft is clearly by radio call going in a certain direction. We never stop learning!

Edited June 26 by Mike Gearon

[skippydiesel]

"Well, you can discuss all you like. CASA have decided what’s the correct procedure. Less calls. "

 

Yes and I do way less calls, compared with how I was trained in the late 1989 -90s.

 

While a pilot can make too many calls, this is preferable to insufficient/calls. Aside from the 10 mile Inbound, the calls are at the discretion of the PIC, who I would hope, has the courtesy and safety awareness to do at least 3 calls - just in case.

[danny_galaga]

On 17/06/2024 at 6:41 AM, Mike Gearon said:

 

Tyabb. Base only and no calls if there are no other aircraft in the circuit and no incoming aircraft. (Note, Tyabb has a new operations manager and things could be adjusted)

 

 

How do you KNOW there are no other aircraft in the circuit?

[RFguy]

flying into Cowra on Tuesday. nothing going on ....although I know a few trainers are out on navs because we all left together an hour back. ....

....10 mile call, then just before join, I glance at the tablet , cant see any aircraft......

then I decide to have a look around, it seems too quiet..... before I press PTT for circuit join call.......... and FFS...... I see a Warrior coming towards me mid field cross wind same altitude.

No calls.  golly, so it is useful to lookout the windows !...... I ask for identification/intentions and it all gets sorted out.   he went #1, I #2, 

 

but then I lost him (sight) late downwind. where has that aircraft gone ?????  now I get more concerned... I call turning base.    I eventually pick him up coming turning final , he must have done  really deep downwind. That's fine.

 

Lots of trainers in the air at Cowra, you really DO need to keep a good eye out because circuit adherence is a bit hit and miss,  as are radio work.  expected. people are learning.

 

There are times in the training intake cycle (6 weeks -3 mo) where its pretty hazardous  , where students are just flying their first circuits in dual, and circuits and radio work is all over the shop.

I think they (training co) , at times,  let their students have a bit too much rope, not enough attention by the hour building young instructors, IMO.... But it's a double edged sword I know between too much intervention , and not enough..... ( by the instructor) 

 

I gather this is the same elsewhere, where there are intensive training ops (6-12 aircraft in the air) in the vicinity.

 

I try to have some airmanship influence when I can, by, example,  by offering to other students (waiting) holding short or following  if they want to back-track with me, or want me to extend  etc... trying to show how to all get on  and accomodate eachother .

 

I think the minimalise  casa calls" is completely horsesh1t. Calls should be made whenever required or conducive to avoiding airspace conflicts.

Edited June 27 by RFguy

[Mike Gearon]

14 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

How do you KNOW there are no other aircraft in the circuit?

Exactly!