Mike Gearon Posted June 27 Author Posted June 27 13 hours ago, RFguy said: 1. but then I lost him (sight) late downwind. where has that aircraft gone ????? now I get more concerned... I call turning base. I eventually pick him up coming turning final , he must have done really deep downwind. That's fine. 2. Lots of trainers in the air at Cowra, you really DO need to keep a good eye out because circuit adherence is a bit hit and miss, as are radio work. expected. people are learning. 1. I think that paragraph explains a lot of what concerns me with BASE as only call. I had a very heated meeting with a senior instructor as previously mentioned where BASE only is his strict rule. We are supposed to have situational awareness to understand where circuit aircraft are before and after they call BASE. There are so many holes in that concept it’s ridiculous. In your case you actually know he’s in front of you and lose sight of him. That happens so easily to all of us. We do see turning aircraft and that’s why it makes sense to call at that time. As you mention he’s gone deep downwind. This also puts paid to the theory that aircraft are going to be at the same spot on base even if different categories/ speeds. I can’t make sense of this theory either. If that different performance aircraft is going to be at a different spot on downwind why is it suddenly with the Cessna 172 turning base in the same spot. That doesn’t usually happen. A warbird for example is probably going to be wide upwind, cross wind, downwind and base. and… so what if aircraft are in different spots and turning downwind. The crosswind, downwind, oblique downwind, base and straight in aircraft are all going to be better off knowing early about that aircraft they want to avoid. I watched a very good interview with Charlie Munger. He accumulated billions through good decision making. He had a job as an aviation weather forecaster and asked the question “Okay, what would I have to do to kill these pilots” The answer was to fly them into icing conditions or weather they couldn’t find an airport to land at etc. So, on that basis he was a really, really good weather forecaster. Now, let’s apply that to radio calls for aircraft in the uncontrolled airport environment. What’s the best way to get aircraft to hit each other? What rules should I as chief instructor apply to my instructors and students. First would be to not make radio calls. Well, CASA has helped out with that one. Second would be to avoid if possible making a downwind call because that would alert circuit joining pilots to your position. Hopefully I’ve concluded my case for DOWNWIND as the call to make. It’s frustrating because it’s so simple and obvious. 2. Student pilots. This as I’ve mentioned before is another reason BASE only is so dangerous. We have ongoing example of solo student pilots and recently graduated pilots not making their DOWNWIND call. They are new with a lot going on and don’t have the situational awareness to hear inbound aircraft they could conflict with and add their DOWNWIND call. I and other pilots have multiple examples of this happening. One could add that decision making process to the new pilots. How to get them to potentially hit circuit joining aircraft? Teach them BASE circuit calls. 1 1
jackc Posted June 27 Posted June 27 For me, its telling people where I am and what my intention is, taking into account what I have heard or not heard on the radio. I don’t want to be forced into a hasty decision, so even at the cost of more fuel, I will go fly orbits out of the way until I am happy to enter an uncluttered circuit to land. For me it’s not a race. My initial training started at Coffs Harbour and dealing with RPTs. Had a 737 coming in direct approach and instructor suggested I had time to do my standard circuit and be ahead of it to land. I m thinking straight away, too much pressure for me, I will exit the downwind and go fly orbits out of the way, wait until he lands and exits runway. Then I will wait a bit for wake turbulence to subside, join downwind then land with no stress. It’s not a race for me, so I chew up more fuel? Who cares? While I am flying, I am having fun! 5 1
skippydiesel Posted June 27 Posted June 27 My opinion: Aside from the very few mandatory calls we are required to make, all other communication is at the discretion/judgement of the PIC. The PIC should err on the side of caution & courtesy - more is better than too little or none. It is the PIC's responsibility to keep his/her aircraft safe AND do the best to assist in the safety of others. Pilots operate in a dynamic environment, the frequency & content of communications should be adjusted accordingly. There is no other authority, in the cockpit, other than the PIC - the airfield committee/manager, other pilots and instructors can not force the PIC to increase/reduce the level of communication. It would be foolhardy of any airfield management/instructor to document or publicly demand a required reduction or limit in communication - they may be held, in part, responsible for a future incident. 2 2
BrendAn Posted June 28 Posted June 28 1 hour ago, skippydiesel said: My opinion: Aside from the very few mandatory calls we are required to make, all other communication is at the discretion/judgement of the PIC. The PIC should err on the side of caution & courtesy - more is better than too little or none. It is the PIC's responsibility to keep his/her aircraft safe AND do the best to assist in the safety of others. Pilots operate in a dynamic environment, the frequency & content of communications should be adjusted accordingly. There is no other authority, in the cockpit, other than the PIC - the airfield committee/manager, other pilots and instructors can not force the PIC to increase/reduce the level of communication. It would be foolhardy of any airfield management/instructor to document or publicly demand a required reduction or limit in communication - they may be held, in part, responsible for a future incident. There are no mandatory calls at an uncontrolled airport. You don't even have to have a radio. The same as circuit patterns are recommended not compulsory. I think these 2 things should be compulsory, that way everyone follows one set of procedures.
turboplanner Posted June 28 Posted June 28 2 hours ago, BrendAn said: There are no mandatory calls at an uncontrolled airport. You don't even have to have a radio. The same as circuit patterns are recommended not compulsory. I think these 2 things should be compulsory, that way everyone follows one set of procedures. "recommended" simply means the government agencies are not Prescribing (instructing or dictating a rule). However, the government agencies made it clear they were no longer prescribing and the onus was on the PIC when the changes came through decade ago for Class G. So far in this thread people have been talking about CTA as well as Class G (different rules), what happens in the UK, what some airfields do, what some instructors should do etc. Circuit Diagrammes have been posted which are wrong etc. That just confuses everyone. Instead there are recommendations for Class G in this link.: They include: When you MUST make a call When you SHOULD make a call Calls recommended ALL the time Calls when there is other traffic https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-05/radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf If there is a bad accident, and you were complying with the above radio procedures, you have an industry benchmark to defend any negilgence action against you. You will also be in synch with the rest of us who follow those procedures. 1
BrendAn Posted June 28 Posted June 28 24 minutes ago, turboplanner said: "recommended" simply means the government agencies are not Prescribing (instructing or dictating a rule). However, the government agencies made it clear they were no longer prescribing and the onus was on the PIC when the changes came through decade ago for Class G. So far in this thread people have been talking about CTA as well as Class G (different rules), what happens in the UK, what some airfields do, what some instructors should do etc. Circuit Diagrammes have been posted which are wrong etc. That just confuses everyone. Instead there are recommendations for Class G in this link.: They include: When you MUST make a call When you SHOULD make a call Calls recommended ALL the time Calls when there is other traffic https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-05/radio-procedures-in-non-controlled-airspace.pdf If there is a bad accident, and you were complying with the above radio procedures, you have an industry benchmark to defend any negilgence action against you. You will also be in synch with the rest of us who follow those procedures. I don't need a link to make radio calls. We are taught that you know. I was just saying none of it is compulsory and I think it should be. I don't care about court cases or whatever. It's about being safe. . I would rather be safe than worry about who I can blame for an accident. 1
turboplanner Posted June 28 Posted June 28 6 minutes ago, BrendAn said: I don't need a link to make radio calls. We are taught that you know. I was just saying none of it is compulsory and I think it should be. I don't care about court cases or whatever. It's about being safe. . I would rather be safe than worry about who I can blame for an accident. This is a good opportunity to check whether what you've been taught is current with today's requirements in plain English and a very short read and whether you are a hazard to other fliers.
Red Posted June 28 Posted June 28 1 hour ago, turboplanner said: So far in this thread people have been talking about CTA as well as Class G (different rules), what happens in the UK, what some airfields do, what some instructors should do etc. Circuit Diagrammes have been posted which are wrong etc. That just confuses everyone. Yea apologies for mentioning non Australian procedures, I did say in my posts that I was talking about UK procedures but sorry that you remained confused 1
skippydiesel Posted June 28 Posted June 28 2 hours ago, turboplanner said: This is a good opportunity to check whether what you've been taught is current with today's requirements in plain English and a very short read and whether you are a hazard to other fliers. The problem is the the language used by CASA: "CALLS RECOMMENDED ALL THE TIME" - The use of the word RECOMMENDED has the timid, insecure & ignorant feeling like is okay not to make these calls. From a legal standpoints they may be correct . From a good airmanship/safety point of view they are very very wrong. "CALLS WHEN THERE IS OTHER TRAFFIC" - Again the language is poor. WHEN THERE IS OTHER TRAFFIC seems to suggest, only to those who want it this way, that when they don't know see/hear other traffic, it okay not to make a few calls. Frankly this is stupidity at its worst. This attitudes endangers both the promoters/exponents of this attitude and the unfortunate that is involved in an accident with them. This incident may have been avoided, if only a call or two had been made. 3 1
turboplanner Posted June 28 Posted June 28 2 hours ago, skippydiesel said: The problem is the the language used by CASA: "CALLS RECOMMENDED ALL THE TIME" - The use of the word RECOMMENDED has the timid, insecure & ignorant feeling like is okay not to make these calls. From a legal standpoints they may be correct . From a good airmanship/safety point of view they are very very wrong. You missed the emphasis. Page 4 says: "Calls recommended ALL the time." There is clearly no time when it is ok not to make these calls. That part of the sentence uis clear and unmistakeable. The use of the word "recommended" is intentional and frees CASA from a prescriptive command. That's so the taxpayers won't be paying if we screw up our radio and a collision occurs. If its any help, I've been through this before with other people reluctant to take on responsibility, so I arranged for our Corporate Lawyer to come to a meeting with the people involved. One opened up with, "If a document says it's recommended that I do something do I legally have to do it?" The lawyer immediately said "No, it's just a recommendation". I said "What's the situation where the document is a safety documents to prevent accidents and says It is recommended that calculations for XXX are made?" She said "YES", you'd be crazy if you didn't do it. 2 hours ago, skippydiesel said: "CALLS WHEN THERE IS OTHER TRAFFIC" - Again the language is poor. WHEN THERE IS OTHER TRAFFIC seems to suggest, only to those who want it this way, that when they don't know see/hear other traffic, it okay not to make a few calls. Frankly this is stupidity at its worst. This attitudes endangers both the promoters/exponents of this attitude and the unfortunate that is involved in an accident with them. This incident may have been avoided, if only a call or two had been made. Page 5. "CALLS WHEN THERE IS OTHER TRAFFIC Other radio calls may be useful at a non-controlled aerodrome, if there is traffic in the area that would benefit from this additional communication." The paragraph is correct English. The action words are bolded in red. Another way of saying this is: "If you're aware of traffic in the area it might be safer to add additional traffic-specific communication. The people you're concerned about are prevented from going silent by Page 4's instruction ALL THE TIME. 2 2
skippydiesel Posted June 28 Posted June 28 Recommend: "the suggestion that someone should have or use it because it is good". Clearly there is no obligation to act on a recommendation - there is no way round this interpretation. A recommendation is not a command, requirement, order - it is at the discretion of the receiving party (PIC) whether they act on the advice or not. Just as clearly there may be negative implications in not accepting/acting on, the recommendation, this does not change the voluntary nature of a recommendation. The use of the word ALL does not change the voluntary meaning of the phrase. WHEN THERE IS OTHER TRAFFIC: This phrase is placing the decision to act (make calls or not) on the perception of the PIC i.e. Pilot asks the question - is there or is there not other aircraft in the vicinity? There is no other logical interpretation. Some pilots (even instructors, according to some on this Forum) have interpreted this to mean a pilot should not make pre-emptive calls ie they are unawares of any aircraft in the vicinity but make a call anyhow. Your Corporate Lawyer is wrong (if in fact you actually consulted one)
Mike Gearon Posted June 28 Author Posted June 28 13 hours ago, turboplanner said: The use of the word "recommended" is intentional and frees CASA from a prescriptive command. That's so the taxpayers won't be paying if we screw up our radio and a collision occurs. Your explanations have been hugely helpful. I also agree CASA mostly has this right. For approaching an airport and entering the circuit it is very clear. The very reason for the changes CASA made are so calls at CTAF’s aren’t an endless set of calls of DOWNWIND, BASE, FINAL when important calls could be missed because way too much radio chatter is going on. However, the point I want to come back to is that CASA has left us with Australian flight schools all teaching variations on circuit calls. Some schools and therefore home airfields still persist in all the calls. This negates the intention of CASA’s changes. Those airfields and particularly when there are shared frequencies with other airports are still in just as much danger as before the changes were made. Then we have the other extreme where radio calls are reduced to the point of being clearly dangerous because none or almost none are being made. Then we get to the one I’m most alarmed at where BASE or BASE and FINAL only are taught. Students don’t seem to be able to bring in the downwind when it’s required. Incoming aircraft are better off hearing a DOWNWIND than BASE call if we are only to make the one. Turbo, you’ve avoided commenting on what is commonly taught at schools in Moorabin. You have every right to if you don’t wish to comment. As I mentioned the one I called into teaches BASE and FINAL when visiting uncontrolled airports and staying in the circuit. Maybe you could comment on what you are commonly seeing as CTAF in circuit calls and what you’d like to see change if anything? My position as I’ve made clear is that CASA could include a recommended in circuit call of downwind. That would fix the current problem in all respects.
skippydiesel Posted June 29 Posted June 29 33 minutes ago, Mike Gearon said: Your explanations have been hugely helpful. I also agree CASA mostly has this right. For approaching an airport and entering the circuit it is very clear. The very reason for the changes CASA made are so calls at CTAF’s aren’t an endless set of calls of DOWNWIND, BASE, FINAL when important calls could be missed because way too much radio chatter is going on. However, the point I want to come back to is that CASA has left us with Australian flight schools all teaching variations on circuit calls. Some schools and therefore home airfields still persist in all the calls. This negates the intention of CASA’s changes. Those airfields and particularly when there are shared frequencies with other airports are still in just as much danger as before the changes were made. Then we have the other extreme where radio calls are reduced to the point of being clearly dangerous because none or almost none are being made. Then we get to the one I’m most alarmed at where BASE or BASE and FINAL only are taught. Students don’t seem to be able to bring in the downwind when it’s required. Incoming aircraft are better off hearing a DOWNWIND than BASE call if we are only to make the one. Turbo, you’ve avoided commenting on what is commonly taught at schools in Moorabin. You have every right to if you don’t wish to comment. As I mentioned the one I called into teaches BASE and FINAL when visiting uncontrolled airports and staying in the circuit. Maybe you could comment on what you are commonly seeing as CTAF in circuit calls and what you’d like to see change if anything? My position as I’ve made clear is that CASA could include a recommended in circuit call of downwind. That would fix the current problem in all respects. The voluntary/at pilot discretion, nature of CASA's advice on this matter is a failure of authority and can do nothing but confuse the pilot fraternity thereby increasing risk. No amount of presumed legal wriggling changes this. CASA should give stronger advice - there should be MANDATORY calls at certain points, in an aircraft's movements, with RECOMMENDED at other times. CASA has neither advised to call or not to call, Downwind - as with all other calls this is at the discretion of the PIC. I support the notion that students should not only be informed of ALL the calls but required to practise them eg Established Down Wind, Base, Final and the usual variations' on this theme, such as Turning..... They should also practise minimising the number of calls so that they feel comfortable in their reading of the situaton that does not require a call at every location. Naturally this means the "airwaves" may be cluttered at some times - What is a small inconvenience, to qualified pilots, compared with future safety/good habits??? 2
turboplanner Posted June 29 Posted June 29 3 hours ago, skippydiesel said: Recommend: "the suggestion that someone should have or use it because it is good". Clearly there is no obligation to act on a recommendation - there is no way round this interpretation. A recommendation is not a command, requirement, order - it is at the discretion of the receiving party (PIC) whether they act on the advice or not. Just as clearly there may be negative implications in not accepting/acting on, the recommendation, this does not change the voluntary nature of a recommendation. The use of the word ALL does not change the voluntary meaning of the phrase. WHEN THERE IS OTHER TRAFFIC: This phrase is placing the decision to act (make calls or not) on the perception of the PIC i.e. Pilot asks the question - is there or is there not other aircraft in the vicinity? There is no other logical interpretation. Some pilots (even instructors, according to some on this Forum) have interpreted this to mean a pilot should not make pre-emptive calls ie they are unawares of any aircraft in the vicinity but make a call anyhow. Your Corporate Lawyer is wrong (if in fact you actually consulted one) The software is not breaking up the quote, so I'll refer to sentences. Sentences 2,3. Correct, but..... You invent your own single transmission in the circuit, a collision occurs - where do you stand? For about a generation now these issues have been settled by civil courts. Where do you stand there? You made your own system up, its failed; what's your defence? Even worse, if the aggrieved pilot was complying with See and be Seen he may win. So no point in manipulating words; the principle will get you. Next paragraph quoting the word ALL. All means all the time. You need to follow the benchmark to protect yourself all the time. "When there is other traffic" The document is clear enough; you can thell there's other traffic by seeing it or hearing it transmit on radio. Last Sentence: "Your Corporate Lawyer is wrong (if in fact you actually consulted one)" A Corporate lawyer is employed by the company; in this case she outlined roughly what I've been saying and answered the questions as a qualified lawyer would.
facthunter Posted June 29 Posted June 29 What's at play here is the Lawyers at CASA are covering their arses. When this circuit stuff started after the demise of aeradio 122.1 clearly laid out procedures were established which gave comprehensive guidance for better or worse. Now really Rafferty's rules apply. Radio procedures are at an all time low for quality and self discipline. Who checks their radio function before departing for a flight? Who has two radio VHF sets? That's why will get more scary moments and accidents. Nev
turboplanner Posted June 29 Posted June 29 4 hours ago, Mike Gearon said: Your explanations have been hugely helpful. I also agree CASA mostly has this right. For approaching an airport and entering the circuit it is very clear. Firstly, let's be clear for this discussion: The title of the thread refers to Uncontrolled airports which are in Class G for which I provided a link. Uncontrolled airports have their own particular problems in that one minute there's nothing to indicate someone else is there and three minutes later as you let down on final, someone is tracking the entire length of the runway. And at many locations there is very little traffic so very few transmissions making it more difficult to learn to subconsciously the correct phrases. What they don't generally have is a problem getting your transmission out given that you might get up to six in the circuit at one time vs CTAF where you might have 11 competitors all using clipped transmissions because that's what they do every day. For that reason the easy plain English document I posted here about five times shouldn't be too hard to learn. CTAF pilots also need to learni it if they are going to fly cross country. 4 hours ago, Mike Gearon said: The very reason for the changes CASA made are so calls at CTAF’s aren’t an endless set of calls of DOWNWIND, BASE, FINAL when important calls could be missed because way too much radio chatter is going on. However, the point I want to come back to is that CASA has left us with Australian flight schools all teaching variations on circuit calls. Some schools and therefore home airfields still persist in all the calls. This negates the intention of CASA’s changes. Those airfields and particularly when there are shared frequencies with other airports are still in just as much danger as before the changes were made. Then we have the other extreme where radio calls are reduced to the point of being clearly dangerous because none or almost none are being made. Then we get to the one I’m most alarmed at where BASE or BASE and FINAL only are taught. Students don’t seem to be able to bring in the downwind when it’s required. Incoming aircraft are better off hearing a DOWNWIND than BASE call if we are only to make the one. I'm assuming you're flying in both Class G and at Moorabbin. I've posted the Class G requirements. For Moorabbin, there are different requirements. The confusion you've met in talking to various instructors was always there, because there is a mixture of people training for CPL who are instructing for income and long term Instructors. So you need to get source documents from CASA. If you don't have them you need to get training and fit aircraft equipment for which you talk to a school at Moorabbin. 4 hours ago, Mike Gearon said: Turbo, you’ve avoided commenting on what is commonly taught at schools in Moorabin. You have every right to if you don’t wish to comment. I did comment, from memory telling you my teachers over the years have used about 20 different versions if you don't count the barrel rolls to and from the training area by one of them. My point was it was a waste of time. 1. You need to know what you are supposed to listen for and transmit, so you can learn the correct procedure. 2. Then you have to sit there lap after lap and listen to the instructor, who may well be taking shortcuts or doing other things to teach you the key actions for the circuit (so radio might get butchered for some). During that phase you will certainly get to understand why some calls should never be missed and how to get a clipped call in when the circuit is jammed how to join, how to fly slow if you are catching up, how to build more distance going long; all the little tricks a CTAF instructor will show you. I can understand the Instructors being a bit bemused. 4 hours ago, Mike Gearon said: As I mentioned the one I called into teaches BASE and FINAL when visiting uncontrolled airports and staying in the circuit. Maybe you could comment on what you are commonly seeing as CTAF in circuit calls and what you’d like to see change if anything? My position as I’ve made clear is that CASA could include a recommended in circuit call of downwind. That would fix the current problem in all respects. In your case, with a lot of current US operations plus Class G plus CTAFI would be keeping a ring binder with the procedures to go over and over to stay current, but you need the source documents, not Social Media and not random airfields or instructors.
jackc Posted June 29 Posted June 29 1 hour ago, turboplanner said: The software is not breaking up the quote, so I'll refer to sentences. Sentences 2,3. Correct, but..... You invent your own single transmission in the circuit, a collision occurs - where do you stand? For about a generation now these issues have been settled by civil courts. Where do you stand there? You made your own system up, its failed; what's your defence? Even worse, if the aggrieved pilot was complying with See and be Seen he may win. So no point in manipulating words; the principle will get you. Next paragraph quoting the word ALL. All means all the time. You need to follow the benchmark to protect yourself all the time. "When there is other traffic" The document is clear enough; you can thell there's other traffic by seeing it or hearing it transmit on radio. Last Sentence: "Your Corporate Lawyer is wrong (if in fact you actually consulted one)" A Corporate lawyer is employed by the company; in this case she outlined roughly what I've been saying and answered the questions as a qualified lawyer would. Easy solution here, be a pussy and sell your plane/stop flying? Buy model Train Set and set up in comfort of your lounge room and make ‘Choo Choo’ noises 👍 Me? I will fly my FAA FAR Part 103 plane around remote paddocks, NO Rego, NO licence but carry a handle held radio and go fly the wings off it, having heaps of fun 🤩🤩 1 1
turboplanner Posted June 29 Posted June 29 27 minutes ago, facthunter said: What's at play here is the Lawyers at CASA are covering their arses. When this circuit stuff started after the demise of aeradio 122.1 clearly laid out procedures were established which gave comprehensive guidance for better or worse. Now really Rafferty's rules apply. Radio procedures are at an all time low for quality and self discipline. Who checks their radio function before departing for a flight? Who has two radio VHF sets? That's why will get more scary moments and accidents. Nev It was the Commonwealth and State Ministers who started it industry by industry. Actually the benchmarks are reasonably good when you compare the pre-flight work load now vs the previous approved flight plans, full reporting.
turboplanner Posted June 29 Posted June 29 3 minutes ago, jackc said: Easy solution here, be a pussy and sell your plane/stop flying? Buy model Train Set and set up in comfort of your lounge room and make ‘Choo Choo’ noises 👍 Me? I will fly my FAA FAR Part 103 plane around remote paddocks, NO Rego, NO licence but carry a handle held radio and go fly the wings off it, having heaps of fun 🤩🤩 For seven short pages to learn? You'd rather fly across to the USA and fly around on a kitchen chair?
jackc Posted June 29 Posted June 29 Just now, turboplanner said: For seven short pages to learn? You'd rather fly across to the USA and fly around on a kitchen chair? I would be there in a heartbeat, considering all the bullsh1t that goes on in this country. The FAA just gets out there and DOES it. CASA etc waffles on for years and many pilots simply die waiting for things to happen. RAA? not wound up enough to go there, YET 👍 2
jackc Posted June 29 Posted June 29 This will be ME, Turbs 🤩 The are Part 103 models available s/hand, I have checked 👍 https://youtu.be/IEdeFJnF5zc?si=lf1xSSUAR_0BERMr 3
pmccarthy Posted June 29 Posted June 29 I don't think anyone has mentioned backtracking and clear the runway, both useful calls if someone is turning final behind you.
BrendAn Posted June 29 Posted June 29 11 minutes ago, pmccarthy said: I don't think anyone has mentioned backtracking and clear the runway, both useful calls if someone is turning final behind you. I always do that because there is usually someone on final 1 1
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